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0dB or not 0dB...that is my question

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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APC321 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 0dB or not 0dB...that is my question
    Posted: 23 May 2016 at 10:45pm
Firstly I apologise if this topic has been covered in speakerplans previously, or if I have put it in the wrong part of the forum, or if I've completely misunderstood my problem!


My question is this:

a)On a certain very well known dj mixer there is an software internal preset that selects the 0dB output level reference from the mixer to either 0dB, -3dB or -6db.

Whatever setting of the preset, the output level as displayed on the master outs on the mixer remains the same.

eg. If the preset was set to -6dB, then the master out would be displaying 0dB when actually -6dB was coming out.

So an experienced dj turns up at an event and finds out that the only way they can get any level out of the system is to "red line" the mixer.


b)On another very well known older dj mixer made by the same manufacturer there is a output level control on the back of the mixer.

I looked in the user manual and it states than when the control is turned fully clockwise then the output level reference is 0dB.

When I did this the output from the mixer was huge, and also I found that whatever the position of the output level control, the master out on the mixer displayed the same level.

So again, as in example (a), if an experienced dj turns up to an event, then by looking at the output metering on the mixer he has no way of knowing what is actually going to the pa system.



I always thought that the output meters on a dj mixer were designed to give the dj useful information (ie. 0db on the meters meant that 0db was going to the pa system), rather than act as christmas tree lights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2016 at 10:49pm
Tongue what is the question?


Edited by king david - 23 May 2016 at 10:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2016 at 11:25pm
The system tech should have configured the gain structure of the rest of the equipment to work with the settings on the mixer.

The metering on the mixer is to tell the DJ how high the levels are inside the mixer.  It's up to the person setting up the rest of the system how that should correspond to to maximum output on the amps and speakers.

The reason for those gain controls is that DJ's like to run systems hard and there are quite a lot that don't understand system gain structures.  Maximum output of a DJ mixer is usually about +22dBm which is also the maximum input level of most other equipment.  However most PA systems are configured so that they reach maximum output somewhat lower than that in order to preserve some signal headroom. (+4dBm is considered to be the nominal signal level for professional audio equipment)  At some point in the chain you need to reduce the signal level coming out of a DJ mixer to something more sensible which allows the rest of the system to run with some headroom left.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grubbah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2016 at 11:47pm
Its a question of gain structure and how you run your PA.

Say you run with your amplifiers at 1.2V, 0dB (+4dBU) on the mixer will be around about where your system amplifiers are pushing at max output.  You could drop the attenuation by -6dB and tell your DJ to run on 0dB and you are running with 6dB worth of system head room. 

I run my amplifiers on a voltage gain of 32dB and let DJs run hot on the mixer. I found its easier to keep a DJ from just clipping than maintaining around '0'.

BTW I take it you're talking about a pioneer... LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 12:55am
what ceharden said. i have my djm900s set to -6db.. that's what seems to work out the best when used with my systems and how i have them set up.

it's sort of a shame to have to reboot the mixer to get to that menu though.. i do miss being able to do it with a van key or whatever on the fly if things are drastic hehe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shelfstacker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 6:01am
As others have said, it depends on the gain structure of your amps and other down stream system elements.

For many years now, I always run any DJ mixer directly into a proper mixer before it goes anywhere else. In fact, I DI it first, which enables me to pad it even more if needed. I can apply compression and a touch of EQ via something like an LS9, and I often take another stereo pair off the booth output and have that sitting in compression with the sub chopped off it, before sending it back to the DJ's Texas headphones.

I see no reason to treat whatever a DJ sends any differently to how I would treat any other instrument on stage, applying first line processing to clean up the often horrible distorted mess of low bit rate MP3 garbage. I'd do the same even if I'm DJ'ing myself, as its really easy to get carried away with the pretty flashing lights on those overpriced Pioneers.

Edited by Shelfstacker - 24 May 2016 at 6:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:

applying first line processing to clean up the often horrible distorted mess of low bit rate MP3 garbage.

Can I ask you what sort of things you can do to improve the output of someone who plays less than perfect mp3s?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geoSal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 11:15am
All dj 's will turn the volume to red in the end.No matter what the level control on the back says they just cant understand the gain structure so this control knob or switch is so useful.(until they learn about it..). The fact that the led meters remain untouched is the main idea.It's a tool for the sound engineer ,not the dj or anyone who thinks he is a dj.That is the only good thing I found on these mixers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 1:55pm
Where do you find these "experienced DJ's" who know what a dB is? I've never met one!

(....apart from maybe Mr Scruff, but he brings his own mixer and it ain't no Pioneer ;) )
Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supremesoundz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 4:53pm
^^ formula sound pm100 IIRC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

Where do you find these "experienced DJ's" who know what a dB is? I've never met one!

(....apart from maybe Mr Scruff, but he brings his own mixer and it ain't no Pioneer ;) )
 

 ^^This, I've worked with some djs who are also very good producers so you think they would know better and they still redline the crap out of the mixer, I've found it very useful to be able to attenuate the signal without the master vu levels on the mixer altering as the dj still gets his flashy red lights and you don't get a signal that is (quite as!) stupidly hot. Although I also rarely plug a dj straight into the system, my old Soundcraft normally goes between dj mixer and lms.    

Edit; re-reading the thread I've basically repeated what's already been said!Smile


Edited by njw - 24 May 2016 at 8:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2016 at 8:30pm
Mr Scruff also turns up with his own system engineer and a rack full of XTA toys....
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