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24v Large Super Capacitors

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carlosdelondres View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlosdelondres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 9:24am
Maybe? Or drain one battery first until IR equalises, then one battery will try to charge the other depending on which drops more volts due to the peaks? Don't know, but it doesn't sound great for battery life...interested in the answer though!
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minaximal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minaximal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Phil B Phil B wrote:

Originally posted by carlosdelondres carlosdelondres wrote:

Won't the different internal resistances of the batteries mean the load is drawn unevenly then?

Maybe ? The truck batt might just take out the peaks that the amps are demanding, allowing the dc voltage across the bank to stabilize? 

And just to clarify...this is only when the system is maxxed out .. subs and low mids at -10 on the amps, limited by a multi band compressor. 

.p.

It's possible the internal resistance of the truck batteries is higher than the Yuasa's and in effect they don't discharge when needed..
Subs + Barges = :)

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valve head777 View Drop Down
Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 3:29pm
What a great thread. Shows how great SP is
I still feel that a high amp charge periodically is good as you want to pull the ions from deep within the plates.
Best of luck for the future dude.
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carlosdelondres View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlosdelondres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 4:58pm
Yep, deep cycle batteries need to be cycled to bring all the plate material into use. Our batteries sit at float all summer (even pulling 80 amps on the motor cruising all day, plus cooking on electric etc. they recharge in half a day or so on the towpath).

So in Dec/Jan when we're only getting half the power we need from the panels I let them draw down to 50%ish and then try to time the recharge day for a sunny one, only get 40amps of the wee genny so the extra 20 from the panels gives a worthwhile boost and hopefully gets deep enough to fully activate. First winter without a mains hookup though so will see how that goes.  Basically everything you do to lead acid batteries degrades them, trying to balance all the factors against each other and make practical use of them drives you mad...

Interesting read on battery chemistry here:

http://mathscinotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/lead_acid.pdf


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 5:28pm
The Exon corporation successfully marketed a crystal making box. The game is to use electric charge to hinder the formation if crystal. Its a totally flawed chemistry if you view a battery as being able to store charge irrespective of charge level. They did this while sitting on technology that if developed would have provided an almost perfect battery which would have a life time of over 50 years.
But profit rules over real advances.

Rant over....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2016 at 5:31pm
Im referring to the humble NIFE battery. Also the least poisoning and most eco friendly option.
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Phil B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 8:21am
Originally posted by minaximal minaximal wrote:

Hey Phil Smile

The Midnight has relay outputs i think doesn't it?

So just disable the inverter low voltage disconnect, (is that possible?) and use the midnight to trigger a big contactor to disconnect batteries at low SOC instead of the crude low voltage. Albright make proper contactors just for the job.

I can't remember how accurate the Whizzbang shunt SOC is, (think they're meant to be fairly accurate tho'?) hopefully it also uses Peukert calculations with a clever algorithm, as shunts logging just amps in and out don't tell the whole picture and go out of snyc.

If you do try adding odd batteries, treat them as expendable, and only connect them into the system for gigs, to make sure both banks get charged seperatley (properly)

The Navitron Forum has quite a few threads about battery mixing, and general consensus is it's a false economy.

Hi Al

It's not a low voltage disconnect its a ripple alarm. The inverter has a lot of values to program but I can't find how to disconnect or disable the ripple alarm and shutdown. 

The manual is a delight to read...not !


As far as I can tell you can't change the constant values. So the alarm is fixed at 1v dc. You can make it a pre-alarm which can go out of an aux relay to trigger something else but can't find how you disable it completely!

E1-17: Udc Ripple Alarm Select (When E1-18=0, ignore this setting) E1-18: Udc Ripple Alarm for ? sec 6-15 z If you want to switch on the Aux-Relay 1 when there is a battery voltage ripple alarm. This setting (E1-17) can be used to choose between pre-alarm or normal alarm. z As with other Aux-Relay 2, setting a delay value (E1-18) must be specified also. This can be done with Delay value for set Aux-Relay 1 ON when battery voltage ripple alarm (E1-18) setting.

Anyway we also are going to double up on our batt link cables just to make sure it's not an overall bank current flow problem. Pretty sure it's not as we have over sized cable all round.

.p.
Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

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minaximal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minaximal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 1:27pm
Hmm, 

I'm not an electronics engineer, so can only guess, but can ripple be caused by high impedance on the DC bank connectors? So maybe do some resistance checking on the battery terminal connections I.E. could the negative links be at a much higher resistance than positive causing excess ripple.. could just need to get the multimeter out and clean up some terminals.. Or maybe the Inverter is chopping up the DC poorly and it's inherent in design / unable to keep up with the high power peaks at a nice smooth level? 

I'd Guess Capacitors could help, but maybe need to be quite specific.. Carlos(Charlie)? Maybe the Amp forum guys?


Subs + Barges = :)

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carlosdelondres View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlosdelondres Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 7:42pm
Don't know, details are definitely beyond  :). Based on the ESC analogy the issue could be helped by shorter cables between battery and inverter, with pos and neg runs as close as possible (thicker won't help, it's an inductance issue).  On the caps solution, voltage peaks could potentially go past the battery voltage so multiple overrated, low ESR caps, close as possible to the inverter... 

if the issue is the load the amps are presenting rather than something in the system being under spec for the job is there anything that could be done on that side of things to help? Perhaps a larger amp with more capacitance in the power supply, run at the same output level, would present an easier load for the inverter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 9:46pm
It really dosnt sound like a cable site issue . You would have figured that already via warm links etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 9:48pm
Remember the song, i know an old lady who swallowed a fly?
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Phil B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2016 at 6:25am
Originally posted by carlosdelondres carlosdelondres wrote:

Maybe? Or drain one battery first until IR equalises, then one battery will try to charge the other depending on which drops more volts due to the peaks? Don't know, but it doesn't sound great for battery life...interested in the answer though!

Yep thanks you lot for all the suggestions. So I think our plan is

a) A deep discharge and then flat out charge. The Inverter / charger can do up to 10 amps 240v input so I reckon we'll disconnect the solar and let that do a full on charge.

b) double up batt link cables to reduce resistance around the bank. At the moment the inverter leads are about 1m & 1.5m for Neg and Posi sides. But it is super thick AWG 0 (55mm2) welding cable ! I could double up on that as well but would be tricky at inverter stud end for room.

c) Prob buy a cheapo truck batt 24v and put inline. This I'm prob gonna do anyway for the next gig as we will be running all 4 of our 15" SS15 subs plus 2 x new keystone subs with B&C SW115-4's !! So a lot more sub demand. I have a feeling that it can't hurt the bank and it'll either work or it won't, not that fussed about buying a s/hand single batt.

d) Try get an answer from the inverter manufacturers of how to disable the ripple alarm / cut-off. Maybe also re-flash the firmware to make sure it's not a glitch.

e) disable the equalise function in the Midnite controller.

.p.


Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar & Wind Sound System Shennanigans..http://diyhifi.biz/
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