Speakerplans.com Forums : Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, http://forum.speakerplans.com/ This is an XML content feed of; Speakerplans.com Forums : General Forum : Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Wed, 08 Sep 2010 11:22:34 +0000 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:19:54 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 9.69 360 forum.speakerplans.com/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=10871 Speakerplans.com Forums http://forum.speakerplans.com/http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_images/splans.gif http://forum.speakerplans.com/ Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : PDN.12MH25 - Neodymium They are... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=130010#130010 Author: CPHSOUNDSYSTEM
Subject: 10871
Posted: 13 January 2008 at 1:19pm

PDN.12MH25 - Neodymium
They are Pd 12" rated at 300rms
not to sure on the price though
]]> Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:19:54 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=130010#130010 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Kevin, I have just read your first... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129843#129843 Author: Tony Wilkes
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 6:34pm

Kevin, I have just read your first post again and I think that the Bass bins are already built, if so please ignore my last post. I must read more carefully next time.

Tony
]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:34:09 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129843#129843 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : I would question the use of PD184's... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129769#129769 Author: Tony Wilkes
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 12:44pm

I would question the use of PD184's whilst they work OK in a reflex box they are not ideal.
Have a look at the Beyma 18P1000Nd or 18P1200Nd these really have moved the goal posts.

Another great choice would be the BMS18N850v2 which work beautifully in a 140l enclosure but are pretty expensive(£270).

Tony
]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:44:23 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129769#129769 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : It's a nice idea but ultimately... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129767#129767 Author: ceharden
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 12:37pm

It's a nice idea but ultimately probably causes more issues than it solves.  In these boxes the frequencies are covered easily.  Taking mine for example:

The 12" driver is capable of playing to probably 3kHz fairly cleanly (ignore the fact it'll get a bit beamy).  The compression driver and horn combo is useable down to 500Hz (although you wouldn't want to because of power handling issues).

This means that at a crossover point of 1.2kHz both drivers are capable of doing an octave either side of it, making for a very clean transition between the two.

]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:37:48 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129767#129767 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Just a thought; The bottom... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129765#129765 Author: tweeter box
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 12:31pm

Just a thought;
 
The bottom 12" keep as a low mid
Change the top 12" to a 10" or 8" and use as a high mid
 
Itll run as a 4 way setup and youll cover the frequencies better.
 
Ive used the B&C comps they give a beautiful sound but cant remember what horns they were!
 
Nice drawing Teks.


Edited by tweeter box - 12 January 2008 at 12:33pm]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:31:57 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129765#129765 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : No, the 12NDL76 in terms of parameters... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129762#129762 Author: ceharden
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 12:26pm

No, the 12NDL76 in terms of parameters is closest to the 12MH32 although the neo has about double the excursion capability of the MH32.

12PE32 is a dedicated midrange driver, has a very light cone and only a 2.5"VC and ideally should only be used on mid horns from about 200Hz up.

Although saying that the 12ND710 I use in my mid-tops is a dedicated midrange driver and I use it down to 120Hz.  It does mean there is a bit of a dip in the system between 120Hz and 200Hz but since it's not unusual to put a cut in the EQ around there on most systems, you don't really notice it missing.

]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:26:02 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129762#129762 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Originally posted by Wrighty DE250... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129757#129757 Author: Tekasis
Subject: 10871
Posted: 12 January 2008 at 11:51am

Originally posted by Wrighty


DE250 = 108.5dB @ 1W @ 1m. 60W continuous (RMS) power handling
PD912 = 97dB @ 1W @ 1m. 300W continuous (RMS) power handling

DE250 continuous SPL = 108.5 + 10log(60/1) = 126.3dB
PD912 continuous SPL = 97 + 10log(300/1) = 121.8dB
   => 2xPD912 continuous SPL = 124.8dB

Therefore, I'd say a single DE250 would keep up with a pair of 12s. Unless they're 100dB neo 12s with 400W RMS power handling like B&C 12NDL76, in which case a single will be almost perfectly matched to the DE250.
 
I'm more than sure I've read somewhere on here which I can't find, but last question before deciding on which 12'' to go for, whether these or the 18Sounds Neo driver.
 
Is the B&C 12NDL76 the Neo version of the B&C 12PE32's ?
 
Cheers.
 
]]> Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:51:45 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=129757#129757 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Kevin,Did you see my thread about... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99956#99956 Author: ceharden
Subject: 10871
Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:47am

Kevin,

Did you see my thread about the cabs I build recently of this type?

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10250&KW=cha2214

The cabs have now been fitted with 18Sound 12ND710's which are incredibly efficient and will work well with high crossover points to the HF.

I'm using the currently unavailable PDC14 that you also wanted to use.  I would recommend using a larger compression driver and getting the crossover point down. 

In terms of alternative compression drivers, the 18Sound drivers are worth considering.  They are quite bright sounding and need a bit of work on the processor but that done you get a very detailed sound.  Not particularly expensive.  Also worth looking at how much some of the new B&C 1.4" drivers are, or maybe the DE610.  Definitely recommend the 18Sound 1.4" flares though.

And just to help your decision process if you want to go down the other route a DE250 on 1086XT with a single 12", crossover 2kHz ish is also very nice indeed.Again 18Sound maybe for a 12" or B&C 12NDL76.

Most of the 12" drivers I've suggested will exhibit the roll off on the low end.  This is just due to their high midband efficiency and the very strong magnets used to acheive it.I find a low shelf starting about 160Hz and lifting the low end by 3-4dB tends to flatten it out.The other option is to use a slight overlap with the subs.

Oh, and one twin 12" mid top will keep up with about 3 18" bass bins!


]]> Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:47:09 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99956#99956 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Originally posted by AlfieDringTiny... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99891#99891 Author: kevinmcdonough
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:18pm

Originally posted by AlfieDring

Tiny word of warning about the reflex ports in your tops. If you cut them like that the port piece (assuming you need to extend it beyond the baffle depth? - if not ignore all this!) ends up being mightily complicated to cut as its got no 90' angles in it. It has to follow the trap angle to keep the same dimensions throughout the port. You also have to make an angled cut into the baffle or else the port will have a slight constriction at the very end.

Ill show you a picture of what i mean when we sort out the net at home, just moved house ya see :)

Alf



hey,

no need I understand exactly what you mean.

No the port was chosed specifically to be 18mm deep so that it would just be the depth of the badffle wood and essentially just a hole

With the dew drivers the design has changed anyway and its now a long shelf port right across the bottom of the cab, but again just 18 mm deep so very easily made by just making the baffle slightly shorter than the rest of the cab.


k
]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:18:25 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99891#99891 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Tiny word of warning about the... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99889#99889 Author: AlfieDring
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:48pm

Tiny word of warning about the reflex ports in your tops. If you cut them like that the port piece (assuming you need to extend it beyond the baffle depth? - if not ignore all this!) ends up being mightily complicated to cut as its got no 90' angles in it. It has to follow the trap angle to keep the same dimensions throughout the port. You also have to make an angled cut into the baffle or else the port will have a slight constriction at the very end.

Ill show you a picture of what i mean when we sort out the net at home, just moved house ya see :)

Alf
]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:48:38 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99889#99889 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : heyLOL, yeah unfortunatly that... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99881#99881 Author: kevinmcdonough
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:24pm

hey

LOL, yeah unfortunatly that was exact driver   my other post www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10798 has the info i got from PD. You'll still be able to buy whatever stocks are left in shops and things, but once they're gone looks like that'll be it.


PD 122  looks great for a single 12" + CD cab, or ArthurG's recomended neo Beyma will work great doubled up with a very wide and gentle para eq centered around 200Hz just taking 1 or 2 dB out and smoothing things off.



k


]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:24:50 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99881#99881 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : regards someone mentioning an... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99879#99879 Author: rich, ind.st
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:00pm

regards someone mentioning an 8 horn between the 12's and cd. ive got adesign worked out for that already, it uses the de250 on the 18soundhorn, a jan audio horn with eminence 8 mra and 2 12's which win isdtells me is good for 127db, can be crossed around 80 hz and has verylow group delay.
if you want the plans your welcome, just pm me...
 i reckon you would get away with using 2 a side, it'll work outcheaper than buying a shed load of 12's and they sound very good...
]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:00:45 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99879#99879 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Was the 12" driver you... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99877#99877 Author: Wrighty
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:33pm

Was the 12" driver you were looking at the PD912...? I've got PD912 andDE250 in EV SX300 copy cabs with a passive crossover at 1.6kHz and theysound great together. I was running 700W RMS (with zero clipping) intoeach cab for a gig which ran for 12 hours, starting with 1 man andguitar type acts and went on to rock covers bands later in the eveningand everything survived intact.

I could've done with some more level at the gig (it was outdoors, after all), so I'm looking at putting anotherpair of the same boxes together. But will I be able to get PD912sbefore next year...?

I've been considering other options but it seems that as soon as you start going upin power handling capacity (ie. larger coil and diaphragm), the top endresponse starts to tail off unless you spend megabucks.

Just doing some quick maths:

DE250 = 108.5dB @ 1W @ 1m. 60W continuous (RMS) power handling
PD912 = 97dB @ 1W @ 1m. 300W continuous (RMS) power handling

DE250 continuous SPL = 108.5 + 10log(60/1) = 126.3dB
PD912 continuous SPL = 97 + 10log(300/1) = 121.8dB
   => 2xPD912 continuous SPL = 124.8dB

Therefore, I'd say a single DE250 would keep up with a pair of 12s. Unless they're 100dB neo 12s with 400W RMS power handling like B&C 12NDL76, in which case a single will be almost perfectly matched to the DE250.

Maybe I should go for them instead of PD912 for my next boxes! Haven't looked at the Beyma ArthurG has suggested yet...

Lunch time.


Edited by Wrighty - 15 July 2007 at 2:34pm]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:33:40 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99877#99877 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : heythank you for your replies.Yeah... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99876#99876 Author: kevinmcdonough
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:25pm

hey

thank you for your replies.

Yeah the 3 top cab thing was partly for dispersion because my old design used a much narrower horn and 1.4" comp, but the newer one is wider so would probably only ever use 2 anyway.

(though they come out in groups of 3 from every 2 sheets of ply so will probably just build the 6 anyway and have two for spare/sidefill/drumfill etc )

beyma comp looks really good think it may be a winner, and i'm just modeling up the 12" you suggest to see how it works.


thanks again guys,


k
]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:25:42 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99876#99876 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : My 2cts comments :A) DE250 is... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99874#99874 Author: ArthurG
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:44pm

My 2cts comments :

A) DE250 is very nice HF driver but IMHO it sounds good only with xover point above 2kHz. If you want better mid extension and power handling, I recommend Beyma CP380M, a lovely smooth sounding driver usable down to 1,5kHz.  Use a the 18Sound horn, they sound nice together

B) my advice for 12", try the new Beyma 12MW/Nd, cheap, efficient and good sounding up to 2,2kHz. you can xover it between 1,6 and 1,8khz with CP380M and you will have a well balanced system. Other advantage with these new 12", you will be able to use the tops without subs for small events

Like said Disco Stu, 2 tops for 2 subs is enough. More and you will have many problems with such wide h dispersion horns and high xover points


Good luck


Edited by ArthurG - 15 July 2007 at 1:47pm]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:44:55 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99874#99874 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : Id say you would only need 4x12to... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99873#99873 Author: Disco Stu
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:39pm

Id say you would only need 4x12 to keep up with 4x18
 
What are you doing about the upper mids? I think you need an 8" horn in there between the 12" and 1"
 
I am assuming you are going to run it active anyway unless you use 16 Ohm mids.
 
Be careful when designing, those trap cabs are going to have terrible comb filtering if they are arrayed like that, much better to line array style it or cross fire cabs.
 
Stu
]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:39:16 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99873#99873 Replacement driver choices for a double 12" cab, : OKHas a system planned out... http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99872#99872 Author: kevinmcdonough
Subject: 10871
Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:22pm

OK


Has a system planned out for a wee while and finally gave myself a kick up the ass and got back to building the last few days.

Plan was to have 4 single 18 subs (PD 184's, the ones in my diary thread) and 3 double 12" tops per side, shown below.  (just quickly drawin in Illustrator not moddled in autocad or anything).






This would be my main reflex system which I could mix and match as needed for small or slightly larger gigs. Single 18's so it could all be moved by one person if ever needed,  and I would never really need anything more reflex wise as anything bigger than this and i'd probably be wanting to step up to horns and a crew of a couple of guys to lift things anyway.


Have hit a problem though in that my reply from Precision Devices (which i stuck on herethe other day) says that they're stopping both the 12" and the 1.4" comp drivers that I was planning to use, and i'm not sure what other ways to go, wanna get peoples thoughts.

First of all the compression driver. With my choice out, was thinking of the DE 250 that everyone raves about so much, on an 18sound 1086 horn. This would be more for live music and commercial music DJing than dance or base heavy reggae/D&B etc etc so really like the very nice sounding top end that everyone describes (though have never heard one myself). 

But is only 1" so would have to get the 12"s up to at least 1.6K to cross over OK (i'm told that the DE 250 sounds OK crossed here, even though its only 1").

Most of the other 12" speakers i've modled in the cabs drop off a little early in frequency for this effectivly, the only one that seems to work is a PD 122.  But these are listed at 400w RMS each so that would be 800w per cab, would a DE 250 keep up, and for that matter would the 4 600w subs properly keep up?


So my choices would be...


A)  Find a better comp driver that would still play high and clear like a DE 250, but can take a little more power.

B)  Or just play the system with the 12" running a little less power than everything else, means they would never blow true but would be a little wastefull?

C)  Replace the 12" with something else, any suggestions? Have nor really been happy with the simmed plot of most 12" I have tried in my price range.  (wanna try and keep to maybe £100-120 per 12" if I can cos i'll have to buy 12 of them)

D)  or make the cabs one 12" plus DE 250.  But then would a single 12" per cab, 3 in total per side, then be a little too quiet for the rest of the system?


thoughts or suggestions anyone?

k


Edited by kevinmcdonough - 15 July 2007 at 1:26pm]]> Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:22:04 +0000 http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10871&PID=99872#99872