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a question about danley gear in general

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lycantheleopard View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 May 2017 at 8:50pm
hello to all! long time no post cause log in details went missing.
 
I've been hearing a lot more danley gear lately and I think I've noticed something odd about many of his designs, but it could be absolutely user error..
 
running a small rig like the th118 and sh60 tops, four and four.  it feels like there is no kick section.  the sh 60 tops have a pair of 12s but they just don't seem to like going below 110 or so hz.  I also noticed this on a similar set up with th115s and sm80s
 
is it that the sinergy horn doesn't give the low mid driver room to breathe? is it that theres a huge compromise in the size of the cabinets for marketing reasons and portability so they don't go low? is it that I'm talking rubbish and just haven't heard a good deployment?  I liked the sm96 with its four fiteens lol..


Edited by lycantheleopard - 15 May 2017 at 8:52pm
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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:44pm
Whose systems have you heard?

It could very well be lack of proper alignment, especially if they just roll with factory presets for each box and do not lpf/hpf the system correctly. The SH are full range and come from factory with HPF in the 50-70 region (apart from SM80 which does have a much higher rolloff), and most of the subs will need a custom LPF to meet properly.

The systems all do have similar phase response out of the box but as with any PA, poor alignment sucks the life out at crossover.

As an example, when running TH118 with Jericho, I put a LPF in at 60Hz on the subs, align to suit, and let the LF section of the tops do the 'kick' and there is god damn plenty of it. When using SM80, it's nearer to 90Hz and in practice there is a small drop of 3-4dB from 90-120, but its not massively audible and the transition from 12" to 18" is pretty poky as well.

If I left factory presets as is, there would be an acoustic (not electronic!) overlap of 40-60Hz which would cause serious issues.

One problem is perhaps that the operators aren't totally used to boxes that actually have output down under 100hz, it is common to find a reflex or hornloaded LF section advertised as running much lower than it is able to do so in practice. Without seeing the configuration and knowing the operators, it's hard to judge properly sadly - and one downside of such a broad range of products is that some of the integrations aren't so simple 'out of the box'.

The Danley guys themselves will be the first to tell you that there are compromises made to get the boxes into a saleable size and form factor, and the lowest notes enter the horn via ports near the mouth, so a larger format horn like SH96 will have more 'authority' simply due to size. That affects every speaker however, in varying degrees.

Edited by toastyghost - 15 May 2017 at 10:46pm
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:51pm
A high amount of Mid Bass/Low Midrange/Kick is not very common for reinforcing live bands compared to pre-recorded music. Since you will find more Danley providers reinforcing live bands than pre-recorded music in the States, the objective of the tone will differ greatly.

Best Regards, 
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:59pm




These might help you understand what's going on, if you look at the impedance and magnitude plot for an SH50 (equivalent to SH60 just smaller mouth area) then you can see what's going on - the 12" section rolls off by around 5dB smoothly from 200-100Hz and then the port takes over, but the port is then horn loaded so it's not quite the same as looking at a reflex driver.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SH-50-spec-sheet11.pdf

Edited by toastyghost - 16 May 2017 at 12:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 1:11am
They also dip below 4Ω around 100hz, so I wouldn't run two in parallel and try and boost the 'kick' region.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 11:12am
can't find the response plot for the sh-60 but the impedance plots are significantly different. low sensitivity from 100-200Hz isn't characteristic of unity horns in general - it depends on the particular configuration.

it should be possible to get good results - I'm guessing you haven't got the crossover settings right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 1:32pm
I agree with Elliot, although there are plenty of electronic dance music events in the US using danley gear.

church and stadium installs make up a big chunk of their US market, where kick drums slamming your chest are not all that necessary.

A 909 kick, on the other hand, has about as much energy at 110 hz as it does in the sub region.  I helped with a recent install in berlin where pg96s (4x12 per box) and a bc-415 pound the room.  The designer/tuner wanted to go with a lower xover frequency, but the results of raising it above 80hz were better.

Danley's design intent is to provide neutral canvases, but since they provide freq response graphs, one can get a better look at how things roll off down low.  The sh-60 pdf is incomplete, but is supposed to be very close to the sh-50, which does dip a bit in this critical region.  By contrast, the sh-69 has a slight boost and given typical dance music applications, might work better if the wider coverage angle is appropriate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 2:08pm
Where in Berlin has taken on a PG system? I can't make my next show over there any more but would love to hear that one.

Also for what it's worth the SH46 also has plenty of 'kick' - in fact that's an area I found myself EQing down in practice. BC subs being FLH with special sauce also are happier above 80 than the tapped horn range, but again the 412 and 812 excel there as well so it is a case of rift box for the job. Or of course, a big pile of DBH if you're so inclined.

I do prefer my subs to be subs these days though, regardless of the PA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 2:43pm
Anomalie  4x pg-96 and 1xbc415 in hte main room, 2x sm96 for dj monitors, 4x sm96 and 5x th118 for a second room, with sm100m monitors.

there was a soft opening a month ago.  Stuff was still getting tweaked, but the main room having sex pounds.  The sub is flown in the middle of the 12m x 15m dancefloor.  The second floor is more panorama bar sized.

If you make it to berlin, let's meet up!


edit: love the "autocorrect!"

they have a facebook page, but here is their website - http://www.anomalie123.de/


Edited by Racks&Stacks - 16 May 2017 at 2:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 2:47pm
the sh46s roll off in the highs a lil too early for many people.  When I did a demo with them, we had headroom for days so a fair amount of highshelf was applied
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