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Advices to build a first sound

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stache View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 January 2017 at 9:11pm
Hi,

I'm looking for help to build a first rig. 

As it is our first project we would like to start small(ish) as we don't have storage/vans for the moment and would like to keep it a one/two person job. I know it might not look like what you guys are used to but we all have start somewhere and that's all we can do at the moment.

We're looking at putting something together to organise dances in small venues/bars and the odd street party. Nothing fancy to start with, but enough to get us starting in the right direction and have fun. In terms of budget we're looking at around £2000 (not including the boxes) if getting everything new and shiny but we wouldn't mind sourcing second hand quality components if we can make the total bill cheaper.

Enough talking we thought of the following:

1x double 15" BR loaded with RCF L15P530, the recommended drivers according to the plans of the BBC.BR215 (http://boomboomcollective.free.fr/site_downloads/BBC.BR215.MidBass_Speaker_Design.pdf).
Crossover: X - 350Khz

One of the advantage of the BBC.BR215 is that another plan is available to use 2x 1x15" BR boxes based on the same plan which would allow us to stack them in order to compensate for the lack of hight not having scoops below. So it could be a modular solution. It wouldn't affect the setup anyway.

1x double 12" sealed box loaded with Beyma 12MI100.
Crossover: 350Khz - 2.5Khz

1x 1" compression driver with horn, RCF ND 1411-M and HF64 
Crossover: 2.5Khz - 8Khz

2x tweeter CP22 passively crossed over at 8KHz.

I terms of amplifier we thought of two T.amp T.AMP TSA 2200.

We're also having a small pre-amp being put together. You can read the specs here, https://www.rdhelectronics.fr/site/EN/cat-2/prod-53

We're waiting to be certain the direction we're heading before settling on the crossovers of the amp.

Now, as you have noticed we didn't plan to build scoops or dedicated subs (for the space/transport reasons we've mentioned above) but it doesn't mean we will not add some later on and recycle the BR as kick bin etc.

1. Does the configuration looked "balanced", Bass/Med/High?

2. Does the chosen crossover frequencies make sense?

3. Do we need the tweeters? if not how would you adjust the tops? I'm asking as I'm not sure we want to go into having to add a passive filter with the compression drivers if we could use one or two CD for the whole 2.5Khz - 20Khz range.

4. We would really want to keep things on the light side at the beginning and work with 2 amps. Again it doesn't mean it will not change in the future. Is it doable? As the stack is meant to be played mono we will probably be using at least one amp with two sets of drivers @ 4Ohm on each canal. We could even get a smaller amps for the tops. Thoughts?

5. We are unsure what to do about the pre-amp as if in the future if we want to add couple of scoops let's say, we would have to send it back to have the frequencies adjusted.  No big deal but I was wondering if we could get away with something in terms of crossover with the current configuration that would not require to have to send the pre-amp back for adjustment.

Please don't hesitate to suggest alternatives as long as it takes into account the preliminary requirements of space and how we intend to play the system at first. We're not after the best Kick, the deepest Bass etc. you get the idea. We want something small and nice to start with and grow if we feel like it. We hope the above is a nice compromise if we want to add more later on.

Thanks for reading until the end!

Peace 


Edited by stache - 06 January 2017 at 9:21pm
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stache View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 9:27pm
Is it the right section of the forum to post about my questions or I should move it somewhere else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinmono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 10:18pm
I love the sound of 15" BR cabs on bass & they fit your needs space wise but I'd go for a much bigger amp to drive bass if possible, that T-amp gives you no headroom to work with.

When we started out many years ago our bass section was similarly underpowered and we spent a lot of money repairing blown amps and drivers as we pushed them too hard trying to get the thump we wanted.

A bigger amp will give you scope for future expansion too.


Edited by colinmono - 06 January 2017 at 10:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 4:02am
Thanks for taking the time to answer, appreciated. Guidance needed.

Why do you think we wouldn't have enough headroom for the bass? Would a T.AMP TSA 4000 be a better choice?

Would you have recommendations for better choices of amps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2017 at 9:51am
Bump.

Anyone?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinmono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2017 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by stache stache wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to answer, appreciated. Guidance needed.

Why do you think we wouldn't have enough headroom for the bass? Would a T.AMP TSA 4000 be a better choice?

Would you have recommendations for better choices of amps?

I hadn't actually read the specs of the 15" drivers (RCF L15P530) when I posted - sorry. Now that I have, I can see that you would have enough headroom to drive that model with the T.AMP. 

The reason I thought you wouldn't is that I assumed you'd be using a more sub orientated 15" design with higher power handling. I don't have any experience with that particular driver so I don't know whether you will be satisfied with the bass performance. From the spec sheets it looks to be designed to suit mid bass applications more than as a pure bass driver. Might be a good choice if you plan to add dedicated subs in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2017 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by colinmono colinmono wrote:

The reason I thought you wouldn't is that I assumed you'd be using a more sub orientated 15" design with higher power handling. I don't have any experience with that particular driver so I don't know whether you will be satisfied with the bass performance. From the spec sheets it looks to be designed to suit mid bass applications more than as a pure bass driver. Might be a good choice if you plan to add dedicated subs in the future.

Thanks man.

Yes that driver is probably best suited for use as a kick, which is the intended use of the original design. That being said the driver specs would allow us to use it as a sub/kick to start with. We are aware of the limitation though.

Glad to hear the amps would be suitable as well, I started doubting my understanding of the headroom :) 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Anyone else with some inputs regarding the configuration?

Cheers


Edited by stache - 09 January 2017 at 2:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 12:47am
Anyone ? Unhappy

I know there are very knowledgeable people on here and I would really appreciate if someone could help us and go over my initial questions in the first post.

Peace


Edited by stache - 11 January 2017 at 9:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 10:18pm
Hi Stache,

just some short comments/recommendations:

- how much practical experience do you have with PA/sound reinforcement/sound system in general?
- do you insist on doing a mono stack?
- for a system of this size, don't do four way, it's unnecessarily complex and expensive
- modular with separate boxes makes only sense at a bigger scale (you want to keep it  manageable, right?)
- I suggest a more "normal"/"PA" setup with sub (one double or two singles) + 2 x good quality, small/medium size top speakers (diy or new/2nd hand manufactured) 
keep it simple first, you can always get deeper into system design at a later time
- cross your 15" subs between 80 - 150 hz, depending on the tops



  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 January 2017 at 11:54am
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

How much practical experience do you have with PA/sound reinforcement/sound system in general?

> Absolutely none whatsoever.

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

- do you insist on doing a mono stack?

> Well, a mono stack just seems to be the easiest to start with as we need to start somewhere. If there is a need to get something bigger we will consider expanding, but I would say for our needs at the beginning it is enough. 

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

- for a system of this size, don't do four way, it's unnecessarily complex and expensive

> noted and will be taken into consideration. The idea was to start with a small four-way to get experience and understand the ins and out of the setup at a low-ish cost.

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

- modular with separate boxes makes only sense at a bigger scale (you want to keep it  manageable, right?)

> Yes we want to keep the stack manageable mainly because we don't have storage place and/or vans to move it around.

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

- I suggest a more "normal"/"PA" setup with sub (one double or two singles) + 2 x good quality, small/medium size top speakers (diy or new/2nd hand manufactured) 

> Would you be able advice on the type of drivers/box design for your suggestion that would fit our requirements?

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

keep it simple first, you can always get deeper into system design at a later time
- cross your 15" subs between 80 - 150 hz, depending on the tops

Thanks for taking the time to answer much appreciated.


 



Edited by stache - 17 January 2017 at 11:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2017 at 5:50am
Hi Stache, 


I re-read your post and answer to my questions, here are some thoughts:


Originally posted by stache stache wrote:

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

How much practical experience do you have with PA/sound reinforcement/sound system in general?


> Absolutely none whatsoever.


good old proverb: first learn to walk before you run smiley1.gif


a lot to learn:

- woodworking

- connectors and cables

- active VS passive crossover

- stereo vs mono

- loudspeaker tuning 

- system tuning

- gain structure

…..

…..

…...




Originally posted by stache stache wrote:

> Would you be able advice on the type of drivers/box design for your suggestion that would fit our requirements?


Your requirements are unfortunately not very precise. No problem really, you just need a little bit of experience doing it, then you will begin to know what you like, or need or want in the end. 


I noticed the part about the rdh preamp, and that you repeatedly talk about a stack. So you clearly want to go in the reggae/dub sound system style.


I respect these choices.


But although I understand that ultimately you want a traditional "sound system stack" look, I would still recommend a pair of good and powerful top cabs (12" + HF) plus 15" subwoofer(s)  as a starting point.


why? 

- "mini stack" with a lot of separate boxes has to be always stacked everything over each other, you don't have other options. This means either that the stack is going to be not tall enough (to keep transport easy), or it will become big (and not easy to transport)



arguments for a pair conventional 2-way passive PA tops:

- easy to transport

- easy to connect

- you can put them on stands

- you can use it as mono if you like

- you can play it with your mono preamp by using the full range out 

- you can put the tops next to each other "sound system style" and splay apart for a wide coverage from one point

- or you can put them in two corners of a room etc

-> more flexible to set up; you can cover a bigger area; 

- you can rent it out like a normal PA system, or in general do more "PA" type events if you want to

- you can use the tops as monitor or delay line or whatever if you proceed to build a bigger system

- it's easy to sell the tops later if you decide you need something completely different



DIY   VS   factory made new/second hand 

- start by building subs, they are easier 

- buy ready-made tops 

- if you absolutely want to build the tops yourself, I recommend you build from a proven DIY kit with ready-made passive crossovers


mono VS stereo

- 2 channel stereo has some problems in big PA application, but it is still the way that most music is produced

- if you play back mono, you WILL loose some of the original signal

- in the end both are fine and work, but they both bring compromise of some sort

- it's good to hear and know the difference yourself, then you can make a confident choice

- try to play some events stereo, some mono, listen to your favorite tunes, and what happens to them in both cases….



sorry for the long post, I hope it helps more than it confuses  :D




as a dessert:


Here are two threads in which you can follow forum member "app"s process to build his own small sound system called "dub disco loFi":


http://forum.speakerplans.com/cheap-driver-box-combination-to-get-low-and-loud_topic89375_page19.html


http://forum.speakerplans.com/fane-12250tc-full-rangers_topic89634_page1.html




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 January 2017 at 2:41pm
Very nice Bob.

Your "long" answer was much appreciated and does make a lot of sense. Meanwhile I've done more research and what I came up with seems to be in line with your recommendations.

Thanks also for pointing at app's thread it is very helpful.

Sir, thanks for your time!
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