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Digital Mixer - Delay / Lag

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brokenjoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brokenjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Digital Mixer - Delay / Lag
    Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:26am
I've been using various berry X-air / soundcraft type digital mixers, also midas m32R  recently

would these add a delay of any kind onto the DJ mons ? 

DJs been asking recently, triple checked my DSP setting, and it just has a basic limit / EQ on there 

only thing i could think of is having these mixers in the signal chain? 



thanks in advance 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B_Bender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:28am
Not enough to put a DJ off. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:44am
Yes the amount depends on processing. Your DSP will also add latency, some are fixed others vary depending on filter choice etc.

It's easy enough to measure the latency of a circuit with dual channel measurement if it isn't published
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:57am

+1

If the desk is powering the PA, then the difference (latency) between the monitor and PA sends will be negligible.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 4:44pm
Typically 2mS all said and done.

Move the speaker 2ft closer to compensate?
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brokenjoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brokenjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 5:14pm
its on a fixed install, the mons aren't really moveable for this site, but its something i've been asked a few times recently by some big names - so thought i'd better check :) 


2ms is a fair amount in a monitor..  don't forget the headphones won't have any at all.. so for me the delay between Main and FOH makes no odds, and i would never delay Mons to match to main.. As Djs aren't really listening to that as such

DSP is an XTA 1048 - with just a touch of EQ and limiting 
Mixer again has a touch of limiting, and then any EQ the DJs ask for nothing complicated 


Edited by brokenjoe - 07 January 2017 at 5:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 6:38pm
If your DJ can hear 2ms, he has an amazing brain.

Hass Effect deals with most stuff to about 30mS, most engineers, will spot from 15mS+ that something is odd, mostly unexpected combing, but 2mS takes some spotting.

Something must be up, as 2mS is just not noticeable, it is either a lot more (20mS+) or he is on a wind up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 7:09pm
The XTA is fixed at 1.5ms if analogue in to out. The XR18 has 11.4ms latency when used via the USB interface but I can't find measurements for the analogue in to out. M32R should have latency compensation so that matrices and master outs match the most latent part of the system when insert FX are used, I would assume this would affect mix buses too but haven't tested.

I have had some acts moan about the latency in monitors when running via a digital desk and then into a DSP unit - for example K DSP has a fixed latency of about 5.8ms and X series has an option to match that for ease of alignment, I disabled that before which brought X4 down to under 2ms and was given thumbs up. Some artists like Scruff ask to patch directly into monitor amp and DSP and basically, I often let them now simply because it's easier to keep them happy.

1ft distance is 1ms as well remember so you may have been above 10ms total, especially if the cabinets are time aligned to a booth sub or even in box itself. I know a lot of artists who would notice that, drummers primarily.
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brokenjoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brokenjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

The XTA is fixed at 1.5ms if analogue in to out. The XR18 has 11.4ms latency when used via the USB interface but I can't find measurements for the analogue in to out. M32R should have latency compensation so that matrices and master outs match the most latent part of the system when insert FX are used, I would assume this would affect mix buses too but haven't tested.

I have had some acts moan about the latency in monitors when running via a digital desk and then into a DSP unit - for example K DSP has a fixed latency of about 5.8ms and X series has an option to match that for ease of alignment, I disabled that before which brought X4 down to under 2ms and was given thumbs up. Some artists like Scruff ask to patch directly into monitor amp and DSP and basically, I often let them now simply because it's easier to keep them happy.

1ft distance is 1ms as well remember so you may have been above 10ms total, especially if the cabinets are time aligned to a booth sub or even in box itself. I know a lot of artists who would notice that, drummers primarily.

i've had some adventures with scruffs team in the past. Confused once they knocked down a perfectly fine DJ box, to fit in an extra turntable 

it's an XR16, direct in and out all - normally run it off the cat5 

cable run is about 20m both ways, so analogue multicore to dsp / amps and then back from amps to speaker, don't have issues elsewhere with this size run.. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geoSal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 9:52pm
Surely there is some amount of delay to the bus outs but no way a DJ or his manager/engineer/sound guy
can be aware of it even with plugins or other processing as mentioned above.
It sounds like a venue/club reflections issue of some kind.We usually dont have problems with live bands using the above gear, although all these models dont have any delay compensation especially with their dsp effects as far as I know.
The mixer that I found a noticeable delay on mons was the avid s3L.
And now that you mentioned Mr scruff I remember many years ago he was booked in the venue I work at.His sound guy was very demanding on some things , so we gave as much attention as possible.During the show I noticed the guy's laptop running some plugins on red clipping.The sound was mp3'ish if you know what I mean.The system was a Meyer mts4 with 650 subs,quite decent for the venue at that time..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

It sounds like a venue/club reflections issue of some kind.
  

 This was my first thought, if a dj can hear a 2ms delay he/she must be superhuman! In the past I may have added delay to a naughty red-lining dj's monitors on purpose (Big smile) but it would typically take up to and above a hundred ms to have any effect.


Edited by njw - 07 January 2017 at 10:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:14pm
reflections was my first thought too.. but then i figured brokenjoe seems to have been running big high profile gigs in big venues for years, so i'm sure he knows about that..

i think i'm going to get a UI12 for a play sometime soon, hadn't thought that something like latency would be noticeable on the outs though..
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