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Electric-Arc Loudspeaker - The innovative solution

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    Posted: 26 October 2016 at 12:04am

What do you think about this?

Information and video link:

http://vigeraudio.livejournal.com/ - http://vigeraudio.livejournal.com/

Electric-Arc Loudspeaker - The innovative solution




Edited by What is it - 26 October 2016 at 10:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:29am
Two issues:

1) Only really any good outdoors - excessive ozone in the home is not that great an idea.

2) Low sensitivity means that for pro-audio use, outdoors, 113dB max isn't loud enough.

The only thing going for it, is the beautiful waterfall plots, no overshoot at all - wonderful. But apart from that, can't see the benefit, too many drawbacks.

Perhaps play music at penguins, to keep them happy, and fill the ozone hole at the same time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbl_man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 9:33am
Penguins. LOL

Also watched the video, (the girl has a lovely voice by the way,is she single? ) interesting,but seems an excessively complicated answer to a problem that doesn't really exist? Probably also bibically expensive,and very power inefficient? Every transducer will need its own mains supply?
Be seeing you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 9:58am
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

Every transducer will need its own mains supply?
That isn't a deal breaker, quiescent is 35W, peak power of 80W, so not too weird in the greater scheme of things. Universal SMPS so easy to just plug into local supply, whatever voltage.

My issues, are with emissions of all types. Ozone in a domestic environment, is not pleasent, just ask an asthmatic. Equally, the audio emissions, whilst looking to be free of any distortion from diaphragm overshoot (the waterfall looks awesome), is just not efficient enough.

If I am being really picky, looks to only really do 4K-15K +-3dB. Decent ribbon will exceed that, and offer similar waterfall, with often higher sensitivity (alcons stuff will rip your ears off with SPL), but no nasties. Even Peavey managed to make a ribbon for PA use.

I have seen home brew versions of these on the net, and whilst impressed with the ingenuity to make it work, the compromises are too high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote What is it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 2:53pm
About OZONE ... Read chemical encyclopedia, basic literacy. Ozone at temperatures above 158F breaks, cold plasma is very difficult to obtain for ozone. For use powerful arc lamps (efficiency = 1%), where a lot of ultraviolet light, and it adds an oxygen atom. very not for long!

Information about the absence of mechanical parts, to overload as much as you do not break in touring work is important. Ribbon afraid overload and expensive + amp? Price?

I think the sound of EAL much better than any of-Ribbon. Type PRO work in a group, pick up the required number and receive power in high fidelity sound.

While for outdoor can not come, only inside buildings.



Edited by What is it - 26 October 2016 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by What is it What is it wrote:

About OZONE ... Read chemical encyclopedia, basic literacy. Ozone at temperatures above 158F breaks...
Exactly.

When it breaks down it generates a molecule of O2, and an Oxygen free radical. Free radicals are the danger....

At sea level, even at concentrations of around 0.01ppm, detectable to human nose, and considered unpleasent, and causes major respiratory issues for vulnerable parties.

About MattStolton ... BSC (Hons) Chemistry, 2II (Desmond!) - Queen Mary & Westfield, Class of 97.

Feel free to shoot me down about the dangers of Ozone in a domestic setting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2016 at 6:42pm
A few seconds on the wonderful webthingy gives you this - peer reviewed overview:


Author:
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency - Office of Air and Radiation; Indoor Environments Division, 1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Mail code: 6609J Washington, DC 20460 www.epa.gov/iaq ;

Pages 21-22

"Ozone Generators:

Ozone generators sold as air cleaners and marketed as in-duct or portable units use UV light or corona discharge to produce ozone, which is dispersed by a fan into occupied spaces.8

Some manufacturers and vendors of ozone generators suggest that ozone reacts with both chemical and biological pollutants and transforms them into harmless substances. They also often make statements and distribute materials that lead the public to believe that these devices are always safe and effective in controlling indoor air pollutants. However, ozone is an irritant gas that reacts with lung tissue and can cause asthma attacks; coughing; chest discomfort; irritation of the nose, throat, and trachea; and other adverse health effects. Ozone is a lung irritant that can cause adverse health effects.

As ozone reacts with chemical pollutants, it can produce harmful by-products.8, 9, 10

Available scientific evidence shows that, at ozone concentrations below public health standards, ozone has little potential to remove indoor air contaminants such as many odor-causing chemicals, viruses, bacteria, molds, and tobacco smoke; thus, ozone is generally ineffective in controlling indoor air pollution.

Some controlled studies show that the concentration of ozone produced by ozone generators can exceed standards even when consumers follow the manufacturer’s instructions. No federal agency has approved ozone generators for use in occupied spaces. There is a large body of written material on ozone and the use of ozone indoors, but much of this material makes claims or draws conclusions without substantiation and a basis in sound science.

In developing Ozone Generators that Are Sold as Air Cleaners, EPA reviewed a wide assortment of this literature, including information provided by a leading manufacturer of ozone-generating devices. In keeping with EPA’s policy of ensuring that the information it provides is based on sound science, only peer reviewed, scientifically supported findings and conclusions were relied on in developing this document. The document is posted on the EPA Web site at www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html. The public is advised to use methods proven to be safe and effective in controlling indoor air pollution. These methods include eliminating or controlling pollutant sources and increasing outdoor air ventilation.

Federal pesticide law requires manufacturers of ozone generators to list an EPA establishment number on the product’s packaging. This number merely identifies the facility that manufactured the product. The presence of this number on a product’s packaging does not imply that EPA endorses the product, nor does it imply that EPA has found the product to be safe or effective."

Cited references:
8. Ozone Generators that are sold as air cleaners: An assessment of effectiveness and health consequences. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ ozonegen.html

9. Shaughnessy, R.J., and Sextro, R.G. 2006. What Is an Effective Portable Air-Cleaning Device? A Review. Journal of Occupational and Environmental Hygiene. Vol. 3, pp. 169-181.

10. Weshler, C. J. 2006. Ozone’s Impact on Public Health: Contributions from Indoor Exposures to Ozone and Products of Ozone-Initiated Chemistry. Environmental Health Perspectives. Vol. 114, No 10, pp. 1489-1496. 


When the EPA come out and say "Ozone is bad", it really must be bad, given all the things they are accused of rubber stamping as acceptable!!

The original cited EPA document (8) is missing, but found an excerpt which is relevant:



"What is ozone?

Ozone is a molecule composed of three atoms of oxygen. Two atoms of oxygen form the basic oxygen molecule — the oxygen we breathe that is essential to life. The third oxygen atom can detach from the ozone molecule, and re-attach to molecules of other substances, thereby altering their chemical composition. It is this ability to react with other substances that forms the basis of manufacturers’ claims.

How is ozone harmful?

The same properties that allow high concentrations of ozone to react with organic matter outside the body give it the ability to react with similar organic matter that makes up the body, and potentially cause harmful health consequences. When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and throat irritation. Ozone may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma and compromise the ability of the body to fight respiratory infections. People vary widely in their susceptibility to ozone. Healthy people, as well as those with respiratory difficulty can experience breathing problems with exposure to ozone. Exercise during exposure to ozone causes a greater amount of ozone to be inhaled, and increases the risk of harmful respiratory effects. Recovery from the harmful effects can occur following short-term exposure to low levels of ozone, but health effects may become more damaging and recovery less certain at higher levels or from longer exposures (US EPA, 1996a, 1996b).

Are ozone generators effective at controlling indoor air pollution?

Available scientific evidence shows that at concentrations that do not exceed public health standards, ozone has little potential to remove indoor contaminants. First, a review of scientific research shows that for many of the chemicals found in indoor environments the reaction process with ozone may take months or years (Boeniger, 1995). Second, for many chemicals with which ozone does readily react, the reaction can form a variety of harmful or irritating by-products (Weschler et al., 1992a,1992b,1996; Zhang and Lioy, 1994). Machines that generate ozone are not effective in removing carbon monoxide (Salls, 1927; Shaughnessy et al., 1994) or formaldehyde (Esswein and Boeniger, 1994). In fact, when tested on new carpet odors and gasses, the reaction with ozone actually increased the number of aldehydes and volatile organic compounds (Weschler et al., 1992). Some of these new compounds created through the reaction with ozone are very reactive, irritating and a potential health threat. Third, ozone does not remove particles (e.g., dust and pollen) from the air, including the particles that cause most allergies. However, some machines that generate ozone also produce ions. An ionizer is a device that disperses negatively (and/or positively) charged ions into the air. These ions attach to particles in the air giving them a negative or positive charge so that the particles may attach to nearby surfaces such as walls, furniture or each other and settle out of the air. Some units also have internal “plates” that help gather particles. In recent experiments, ionizers were found to be less effective in removing particles of dust, tobacco smoke, pollen or mold spores than either HEPA filters or electrostatic precipitators. (Shaughnessy et. al, 1994)

If a machine does not emit more than 50 parts per billion allowed by the EPA, can it still be harmful?

Yes, there is no “safe” level of ozone. For many people, even at the 50 parts per billion of ozone allowed by the EPA, exposure far exceeds the tolerance level.

However, there are also other factors that contribute to ozone levels. First is the size of the room where the machine generating ozone is being used. In one study a machine run in a 350 square foot room generated ozone counts in the room of 500 to 800 parts per billion — ten times the allowable limit. Second, indoor air generally contains some ozone — particularly when ozone is at high levels in the outdoor environment. Indoor ozone concentrations generally run at 10 to 20 parts per billion, but can be as high as 30 to 50 parts per billion. When you add the ozone coming from a machine, it would most certainly exceed allowable limits. Third, the simultaneous use of multiple devices greatly increases the total ozone output and therefore greatly increases the risk of excessive exposure.

The US Food and Drug Administration also addresses the issue of the labeling of machines that generate ozone. In the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 21, Volume 8, Part 801 (www.fda.gov) it states:

“A number of devices currently on the market generate ozone by design or as a byproduct. Since exposure to ozone above a certain concentration can be injurious to health, any such device will be considered adulterated and/or misbranded within the meaning of sections 501 and 502 of the act if it is used or intended for use under the following conditions:

  1. In such a manner that it generates ozone at a level in excess of 50 parts per billion by volume of air circulating through the device or causes an accumulation of ozone in excess of 50 parts per billion by volume of air in the atmosphere of enclosed space intended to be occupied by people for extended periods of time, e.g., houses, apartments, hospitals and offices. This applies to any such device, whether portable or permanent or part of any system, which generates ozone by design or as an inadvertent or incidental product.
  2. To generate ozone and release it into the atmosphere in hospitals or other establishments occupied by the ill or infirm.
  3. To generate ozone and release it into the atmosphere and does not indicate in its labeling the maximum acceptable concentration of ozone which may be generated as established herein and the smallest area in which such a device can be used so as not to produce an ozone accumulation in excess of 50 parts per billion.
  4. In any medical condition for which there is no proof of safety and effectiveness.
  5. To generate ozone at a level less than 50 parts per billion by volume of air circulating through the device and it is labeled for use as a germicide or deodorizer.” (Revised as of April 1, 2003)

Conclusions

  1. Whether in its pure form or mixed with other chemicals, ozone can be harmful to health. When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts of ozone can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and lung irritation. Animal studies suggest that long term exposure to ozone may lead to permanent scarring of lung tissue, loss of lung function and reduced lung elasticity. It may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma and COPD. Machines that generate ozone should never be used around the ill, infirm, young or elderly.
  2. Many factors affect ozone concentrations produced by machines that generate ozone including the amount of ozone produced by the machine(s), the size of the indoor space, the amount of material in the room with which ozone reacts, the outdoor ozone concentration and the amount of ventilation. These factors make it difficult to control ozone concentrations.
  3. Available scientific evidence shows that, at concentrations that do not exceed public health standards, ozone is generally ineffective at controlling indoor air pollution. In the process of reacting with chemicals indoors, ozone can produce other chemicals that themselves can be irritating and corrosive."
So. 50 parts per billion is mentioned as being a safe lower limit, but even then, can cause injury to individuals with sensitivity. Basically, no safe lower limit.

And you want to put 2 devices, within a few metres of a human, breathing away, listening to their Steely Dan LP for an hour or two.

You must be able to see the possible problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote What is it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2016 at 12:22pm
Traditional ionophone and EAL are very different devices essentially. While using a single energy transfer principle. No similar Electric-Arc Loudspeakers device is not currently commercially produced, so compare them with ionophone - incorrectly.

1. EAL is not ozone generator.

2. The device is not using corona discharge.

3. Measurement of ozone at 1 meter does not exceed the background noise.

   Valid for corona discharge is needed, one electrode and the second electrode - the environment. Therefore, approaching the second virtual electrode ionized gas (plasma) cools forming O3 in small quantities, which decays in a few minutes.

     The EAL electric arc has no cold zones, as it has two electrodes, between which closed the flow of electrons in the ionized gas and heated to the same temperature, prevents the formation of O3. In addition, the air flow path of the catalyst has Horn.

 At temperatures above 158F (70C), ozone is formed.

P.S.    

 You, and not only you, confuse the ionized air with ozonized

     Why does everyone like the air after a thunderstorm even asthmatics?

    Because ozone in the air? .... Or ions?

    When you fry something in the kitchen and the smell in the whole house ... ..

      Are you sure that all this is good for your health? ....



Edited by What is it - 27 October 2016 at 12:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2016 at 12:27pm
How much they paying you to try and sell this stuff then? 4 posts, all one topic.

I'd prefer ionized air to air with oxygen radicals in it, ions have a much shorter mean lifetime.

Every ozone generator I have ever used has been done so under interlocks and extract. Atomic layer deposition tools, ozone generators for surface cleaning. Indoor use admittedly. Manufacturers would not waste the money or insist upon the facilities if it wasn't a good idea.

Anyway I agree with Matt, interesting idea but too much complication with little improvement upon the existing methods of reproduction to get significant uptake.


Edited by odc04r - 27 October 2016 at 12:31pm
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