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crown vs lab gruppen

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bitcore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bitcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 12:18am
Peter, if the lab falls on it's face on bass duty when playing *those* tracks, I can only imagine how bad it is on the type of music I enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_38hditk7g aphex twin - xtal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY4Dov9afhA dilinja - valve sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIx5jldKaEY qemists - stompbox (spor remix) [one of my favorites, its like a constant sine]

I need an amp that can play that last one, full tilt, on a loop for 24 hours, and push out at least 1500W/ch @ 8 ohms, bridged or not.


Edited by bitcore - 21 August 2008 at 12:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lapford1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:18am
Lab(light) or Matrix(Heavy!) Love those things you can get to gruppen withBig%20smile but also love having a work out putting gear in the vanLOL Trouble is there isn't alot in it to my ears, but if you want to go low, then go buy a bottle of lucozade and spend your money with andy! ( nearly had to flip a coin over that one but Bang for Buck, Matrix wins all day long!!!!)
Hmmm Meyer!!! Heavy!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:24am
Ultimately, if you can afford it, putting another fP6400 in your rack to make up the extra power reserves is still insignificant weight compared with a VZ5!

Also consider that even if your amp is capable of a full power continuous sine wave, do you really want to be feeding that into your speakers for any length of time.

The important thing I guess is that things like fp6400's and Camco V6's have always been able to drive the speakers as hard as I'd want to!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sKs01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:31am
try some iration steppas tracks.... i cant imagine many lightweight amps would enjoy that (im not inciting the old heavy vs light argument here but the psu's just werent designed for that)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bitcore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 2:45am
Originally posted by ceharden ceharden wrote:

Also consider that even if your amp is capable of a full power continuous sine wave, do you really want to be feeding that into your speakers for any length of time.


Absolutely. When I build my subterranean bunker of aural pleasure and pain one day, the drivers will be spec'ed to handle a crazy continuous load.... it's going to happen one day. There are some drivers that eat up a full 3Kw for hours like it was no problem at all.....
but please remember, I'm a bit insane for how much bass I want.


Edited by bitcore - 21 August 2008 at 2:46am
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Peter Moller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Moller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by bitcore bitcore wrote:

Peter, if the lab falls on it's face on bass duty when playing *those* tracks, I can only imagine how bad it is on the type of music I enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_38hditk7g aphex twin - xtal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY4Dov9afhA dilinja - valve sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIx5jldKaEY qemists - stompbox (spor remix) [one of my favorites, its like a constant sine]

I need an amp that can play that last one, full tilt, on a loop for 24 hours, and push out at least 1500W/ch @ 8 ohms, bridged or not.
 
IMO you will be disappointed with the Lab stuff and other light weight products... Look for something nice and heavy instead..  But make sure you can try the amp in real life situations before you make any purchase..
 
Most sound rental places will have Crown Ma5000VZ etc. in their rentalstock, so it shouldnt be a huge problem finding one..
 
/peter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tedski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Peter Moller Peter Moller wrote:

 
IMO you will be disappointed with the Lab stuff and other light weight products... Look for something nice and heavy instead..  But make sure you can try the amp in real life situations before you make any purchase..
 
Most sound rental places will have Crown Ma5000VZ etc. in their rentalstock, so it shouldnt be a huge problem finding one..
 
/peter


Sorry but thats just bull.
Quality is not measured by weight. The vz5000's give you a free bucketload of distortion. If thats what you like, fine.

Todays lightweight amps deliver heavy bass just fine. Our F221's powered by E45s sound damn good, on 2 ohm, on sustained sub. As do the fp6400's we have used in clubs, as do FFA5000's on Infra's.

As for most rental places owning 5000's, we have never and will never own one, and I do not know of many places that do own them. It is not the benchmark amp, it's too freakin' heavy. I'm sure the Inf8 for example is great, but thats not because its heavy.
It's 2008, 30 kilo amps are stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2008 at 11:27pm
all the rental houses i know ( quite a few) are moving on their inventory of heavy amps for the same reasons
 
1) there heavy
2) modern light weight amps are more than capable of operating as well, if not better than the heavies they replace
 
using reasons like "i need an amp which can deliver a full power sine wave continuously" simply tells me one thing
 
you need more power!
 
smps every time in the real world - if ive got less than 10db of headroom on the system im running i know i should have brought a bigger rig
 
so, get the lab. everytime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Moller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2008 at 5:15am
Tedski, csg:
 
I know for a fact that the FP6400 will not output its rated power continously - Labgruppen had a whitepaper on their site outlining how they measured this:
 
To be a bit harsh about it: if the amp needs 66 miliseconds to recover from a 33milisecond full power burst, you need 3 of these amps to get continuous full power :-)
 
Like it or not, the MA5000VZ delivers 2500W per ch into a 2 ohm load constantly, without limiting its output and claiming its a "service" to you ( I dont know about you, but I dont run my ampracks full tilt on a 10A mains fuse expecting not to blow any fuses )
 
That said: The FP6400 sounds great for most uses, but for bass-heavy stuff like the examples mentioned, it just runs out of headroom ( sorry - its saves your mains fuses ) way before the 5000 and other heavy lumps of copper and iron does.
 
The 5000 is far from my favourite sub amp - in fact, I am not happy with it at all, but it does keep its promises in the power dept.  
 
The 5000 was the industry standard for many years until manufacturers started offering light weight amps that would cover most users needs, but just like the vinyl vs cd discussion, there are still many situations where the old technology wins..
 
As a side note, it seems that I am not the only one who has some issues about the at times misleading way of posting specs: http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/Power_Ratings_Tech_Note.pdf
 
/peter
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deadbeat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2008 at 9:17am
Hi,

Not making a counterpoint or anything, neither of the amps is a favourite...

I'd just like to post the 3rd party numbers for the fP 6400 so people can see.

Bink's amp shootout.
117vac supply
4 ohm stereo
Continuous sine wave.

20hz - 1327W
1khz - 2310W
20khz - 648W

Amps are rated by Lab Gruppen, at 4ohm bridge, >117Vac
1Khz - 2200W
20-20K - 2300W

And here's Crown results.
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/24996/0/32/0/
These are given by the manufacturer.


Edited by Deadbeat - 22 August 2008 at 9:18am
Away on extended leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2008 at 11:32am
Peter,
im perfectly aware that the lab will not deliver full power long term bursts. but that is my point exactly
 
what the amp is perfectly capable of doing is providing high power amplification of a dynamic input signal. It is already well established that the power of a system is a pointless statistic. the spl it can achieve is the important number
 
as i said before, i have no problem playing anything thru light weight amps because i will ensure that headroom is preserved.
 
ive used macros many times over the year, and yes they are powerful. but the sound they produce and the amount they weigh precludes them from modern world selection in my opinion.
and it seems im not alone. amps like macros, crest p series etc are becoming a rare sight in the professional sector. they have in no way dissapeared, but are doing so, slowly.
 
if the only way to provide amplification on a pro level was heavies, then everybody would be buying amps like infinate 8's
 
but there not.
 
of course, this is just my opinion.
 
however, if you are on a buget and need to rinse every watt out of your amps, then you are better with a heavy weight. that is not the way i like to work.
but saying heavies are simply better is like saying that the only way to get low bass is to use a scoop.....
im running for cover now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick Sasquash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2008 at 9:38pm

Crown Vz is a beast... Simple....even pon heavy b lines it delivers whet it says it will :-)
I cant hear any distortion when i play mine...   Well yes, i suppose i can... but that is always the venue shakin to bits ;-)
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