Sims and all that |
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nickyburnell
Old Croc Joined: 06 February 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Posted: 23 April 2009 at 9:33pm |
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Nothing personal here, just a pattern.
As is documented, I had to make Staip mini scoop chamber smaller to get control of a V18 1200.
Mikeys Rhino, quote from first post: "1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey"
But now we have Mk2 to aid control of driver...
Are we not just going round in circles with already known parameters?
The sims are obviously way out. Somewhere on here Rog says something like, it just shows what a load of bol**** it all is (or something close).
That sim showed little movement of cone with V18 1200 at 1200w. I think we all know that aint gonna happen.
Before the sim software some amazing cab's were built, trial and error. Thing is, the trial and error is still happening because the sims are wrong.
You can now all shoot me down with techno babble.
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It's everything, not everythink!
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Deadbeat
Old Croc Joined: 12 March 2008 Location: Singularity Status: Offline Points: 3167 |
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What's your point?
They work well for FLHs They don't work so well for RLHs If it doesn't fit in HR, go to David McBean. He is still somewhere on this forum, I think. To be honest, every scoop I have ever seen looks roughly the same on the inside, all you do nowadays is just mess about with the chamber size. There's not much you're going to achieve simming anyway, if you know that it's wrong, and it's not going to be improved in the next version... Are there any measurements of the scoops mentioned so often that anyone would like to put on the forum? EDIT: This may look harshly worded, but it's not
Edited by Deadbeat - 23 April 2009 at 9:58pm |
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Away on extended leave.
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nickyburnell
Old Croc Joined: 06 February 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Harsh, never ;) Point was simple, sims said one thing, ie: no cone movment 1200w blah. Blatently not true in real life. This has IMHO been compounded by my experience with Staip Mini and the fact that there is a Mk2 Rhino. Not taking anything away from the designers, many thanks to them, it's just the sims aint right, so we are back to trial and error. Mykey has found that the Mk2 controls driver, I found that Staip mod did same. As you rightly said, they're all roughly the same. I can really see why, "Non technical" cab bulders have had success with scoops, trial and error.
Please, please don't take this the wrong way anybody. Edited by nickyburnell - 23 April 2009 at 10:44pm |
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levyte357
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: UK, London Status: Offline Points: 11743 |
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Posted Nov 20008 http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/the-bull-x-medium-size-updated_topic20926_page2.html
Posted 27th December 2008 http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/cow-18-full-size-scoop_topic22328_page4.html
Posted 8 March 2009 http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/ms-18-mini-scooper_topic22858_page9.html
Look at the above posts, and you'll see I consistently pointed that chambers which are too large will lead to blowing drivers at approx 500W. I also consistently said Medium chambers are the "new" bad "bwoys". Youngblood said this as well. Regarding MS-18, It was also obvious there was little compression/over size chamber going on in the MS-18.
I knew the above was BS when I read it, as I have owned V18-1200, and know from seeing it in large chamber and sims, it won't take 800W in large chamber. However when I mentioned this before I was lynched, so I decided to let someone else prove it. Nicky, HR is "extremely" accurate when it comes to simulating Xmax displacement. Have a look at the "Levyte scoop design thread", and you'll see I simulated Turbomax, 1850 and V18-1200, and the Xmax displacement results are exactly what was seen at shootout, or what people have found since then. EDIT:My scoop didnt work out because I didnt know how to translate HR input data to Real world horn folding. I am leaving that to the experts in Future. However as HBL already said, many builders arrive at excellent cabs by trial and error, without software. Tony R and Shortman being 2x of them. Edited by levyte357 - 24 April 2009 at 2:09am |
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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
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mykey
Old Croc Joined: 18 August 2005 Location: UK/Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 9680 |
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that was @ 40hz, and why wouldn't it?
are they
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mykey
Old Croc Joined: 18 August 2005 Location: UK/Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 9680 |
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Nick, its simple, large chamber= less SPRING effect
the whole Idea of the large chamber was to CHEAT, cheat as in get a small scoop to play lower, low like a large scoop
I gave the Rhino 71 litres because lev said that was roughly what large chambered minis were
it plays low but with too much cone movement, it would need Rambo style drivers to play all night
its common sense that a smaller chamber will give better control
I had a play around with the Rhino design and found that i could increase the SPL with little loss of bottom end, and keeping the cone in its chassis
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mykey
Old Croc Joined: 18 August 2005 Location: UK/Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 9680 |
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I knew the above was BS when I read it, as I have owned V18-1200, and know from seeing it in large chamber and sims, it won't take 800W in large chamber. However when I mentioned this before I was lynched, so I decided to let someone else prove it. it didn't matter what driver it was, it was the horn that was denoting what was going on
it was saying at 40hz there is little cone movement, this was fact, I saw it right in front of my eyes lol, it didn't mean that all the other FR's were going to be the same
"However as HBL already said, many builders arrive at excellent cabs by trial and error, without software. Tony R and Shortman being 2x of them."
only a short time will tell lol Edited by mykey - 24 April 2009 at 6:39am |
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mykey
Old Croc Joined: 18 August 2005 Location: UK/Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 9680 |
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you've owned 4 v1200's and sold them?
maybe you should have waited for a proper design scoop to put them in lol
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mykey
Old Croc Joined: 18 August 2005 Location: UK/Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 9680 |
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@
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mobiele eenheid
Old Croc Joined: 15 August 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1568 |
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Further development was needed for predicting tapped horns with HR, IIRC McBean stated the accuracy for sim'ing back loaded horns have lifted with this development. All back loaded BPH I've build seem to correlate very nicely to the sim'ed displacement.
Best regards Johan
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nickyburnell
Old Croc Joined: 06 February 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Phew, just got up. Thanks for keeping it freindly. Obvious conclusion is a bit like life really, everybody is right and wrong to a greater or lesser degree. Thread does condense a lot of stuff to make good reading.
Suns out!
Nick
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levyte357
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 10 May 2004 Location: UK, London Status: Offline Points: 11743 |
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Exactly. The Turbomax 1200/1500 and V18-1000 are the only drivers "in UK", that won't lose their lunch when fed over 800W in large chamber, however put those in a medium chamber and you will still get decent sub, and real 1kw power handling. Edited by levyte357 - 24 April 2009 at 10:02am |
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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
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