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speaker delay?

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keilamym View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote keilamym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: speaker delay?
    Posted: 30 May 2009 at 12:33am
this may sound like a stupid question but i'll ask... what do you use to delay speaker signals?
 
example:
when running reflex cabinets over scoops which ones would i need to delay, and what would i use to delay them?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2009 at 12:49am
Reflex over scoops is an odd example.  In that specific combination you may be better off without a delay between the cabs.  Depends on the crossover frequency but as the upper end of the scoops ouput is produced by the front radiating speaker there is a good chance it will integrate well with the reflex above.
As another example, reflex over front loaded horns, you'd delay the reflex to around the horn length, give or take some for the speakers own phase' influence, to get them aligned at the crossover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gwarntek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2009 at 12:55am
how would you work out the 'give or take some for phase influence'??

also just phase in general...

i understand it but not how to measure and correct it (apart from inverting)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2009 at 1:07am
booger..just wrote a reply once and it vanished..

You could measure phase response and factor into your calculations, if you have the kit. (Mind you, if you had the kit it would work it all out for you :)  A by the ear setting is good enough for most. Or you can use a tone at the crossover frequency and adjust delay to find the loudest point.  Or better, reverse phase of one speaker and find the quitest, then correct phase and you're all aligned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sheffield-junglist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2009 at 1:34pm
Using the reflex over scoop example, you'd have to delay the reflex boxes by the amount of time it took the sound to travel the entire horn length of the scoop and then come out of the mouth. For every 1metre of length you need to delay it by 1ms (I'm pretty sure thats the rule anyway) At first I always used to get confused about why you don't just do it on the scoops until I realised that you cant push the sound forward LOL

And you'd use an active crossover that had the feature such as the Berry ultradrive. Theres probably other devices you could use but I have no idea what they are.



Edited by sheffield-junglist - 16 June 2009 at 1:37pm

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john binary View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john binary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 1:06am
what delay setting do people use between their X1 bandpass and hd15 short horn bandpass 
BIG AUDIO ROCKING THE VENUE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SwenK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 10:56am

Hi all,

Rule of thumb i use  is 1m is approximately 3ms of delay.

Its all about 'sounding good' and nothing about applying a fixed delay because somebody has said thats right.

You will know whan you have set the delays right, because it will sound good/better.
 
Before i had 'ears' for delay i used to have a click track with alternate L and L+R clicks (roughly around the crossover point between the two boxes), i used to route the left channel to the 'time zero' box and the right to the box that required delaying, once both clicks start sounding roughly the same, you know you are there.
 
Nowadays i don't bother, i can hear when something is in/out (most of the time)
 
There is an interesting piece on this on the actual speakerplans website by Rog,
 
For delaying stuff there are a host of options from the pricey XTA DP range (224/226etc) to the budget behringer unit that is used by a lot people on here.
 
Basically you are looking for a loudspeaker management unit (rather than a simple crossover), these come in the form of a 2 in 2/4/6 out DSP unit, often with usb/network connectivity Be aware not all of them come with a delay option, or with enough delay for decent aplications.
 
DBX have the Driverack PA offering
DB Technologies have just launched a new one  www.dbtechnologies.com
Void do some nice simple to use Digidrive products www.voidaudio.com
Omnitronic have several fanatastic offerings for the money dxo  and dxo pro
 
There are literally hundreds of them out there from most respected audio manufacturers
 
Personally since i generally mainly use passive boxes and don't need steep crossover slopes i use the allen heath idr8 (which also acts as my external matrix), its geat because it connects directly to an ip network, which means i can use wifi and allows me to walk about in a venue with my 10" netbook timing in the pa, (looks the shizzle in a theatre)
 
Hope that helps
 
s.
It's an artistic piece...but i like it
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Saul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by sheffield-junglist sheffield-junglist wrote:

 

Using the reflex over scoop example, you'd have to delay the reflex boxes by the amount of time it took the sound to travel the entire horn length of the scoop and then come out of the mouth.


but if you did that then the upper end of the scoop (60-90hz) would be out. 

That's the thing about scoops is they are usually out of phase. 

This is one of the reasons theyre so crap for live work. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 1:14pm
after going from using no delay on my bass,to exact correct delay settings,i can say i was really impressed ,and obviously,when both cabs are in phase,you are getting the full potential out of both cabs ,and not losing some db by not having each phase aligned.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sheffield-junglist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Saul Saul wrote:

Originally posted by sheffield-junglist sheffield-junglist wrote:

 

Using the reflex over scoop example, you'd have to delay the reflex boxes by the amount of time it took the sound to travel the entire horn length of the scoop and then come out of the mouth.


but if you did that then the upper end of the scoop (60-90hz) would be out. 

That's the thing about scoops is they are usually out of phase. 

This is one of the reasons theyre so crap for live work. 




Why would the upper end be out?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 9:01pm
The upper end would be out because these frequencies are coming direct from the driver, not through several feet of horn like the low frequencies do. The low frequencies are therefore delayed compared to the upper frequencies. This is what gives a scoop its distinctive sound.
Blahblahblah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2009 at 9:07pm
If you're using a reflex and a scoop, then just leave it, upper bass will come directly from the cones, and will be intime if physically alligned. and you'll have to just let the horn and the port stay as they are....
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