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Wiring 2 speakers and a tweeter

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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by lycantheleopard lycantheleopard wrote:

the ev cabs you have right now are actually very fine speakers and you arent really getting what they can fully do by using one pair as mids and one pair as tops, unless half of each is blown out lol..then your doing it right with what you have.
 
if i was you, with what you own, this is what i would do.
 
use two outputs of your crossover for the eighteens, two more for a pair of eminence capa pro 12s per side, and the final two for a pair of eminence psd3006.  scrap the four way idea, keep it simple, set xover points accordingly, and be loud as all get out, clean and clear, with less cabinets to move.
 
having a four way system is great, when you need it, but live bands dont need it nearly as much as dj/prerecorded music imo and..please dont take this the wrong way, it sounds like your biting off more than you can hold onto with this, and keeping it simpler for starters will net a better result especially if you've got six weeks before they need to be used.
 
down the road you could add four more eighteens and then some dedicate midbass/low midrange cabs with the eminence 4015 lf, but for now..the above is what i would do.
 
some other notes.
 
use a 90 x40 dispursion horn for the psd 3006, when you want to double up this rig later it will be harder to get the angles of two cabs per side right, but for now, its the best option for even coverage in pubs up to outdoors with one set of horns per side.
 
use crossover points of 90 hz lowpass to the eighteens, with a 30 hz highpass as well both 24db butterworth.
 
use crossover points of 110 hz highpass for the 12s and 1.1 khz for the lowpass of the 12s, 24db on the lowend and 18 at the top.  the reason for the gap between the highpass of the 12s or lowpass of the fifteens is that most pa setups tend to energize a room at about 100 hz and this creates a small null where the frequencies are less..meaning less eq and less mud right out of the box.
 
use highpass of 1.2 khz 24 db on the horns, and set the lowpass on the crossover to 20khz or out depending on what it can do.
 
these crossover points would also work if using the eminence cappa pro fifteen, but i really like the sound of 12s better for rock vocals and such.
 
these are starting figures and will get you going quick, then you can play with dropping the hf driver to 800..but dont overlap, if you drop the hf driver down, drop the 12s too.  setting the hf driver a little above 1khz nets you more protection and safety for the driver diafram.


I don't know if I understand the above post correctly, but the system I currently have is a 3-way system (2 x subs, 2 x 15" EVs and 2 x 12" Evs) so not sure where the 4-way system idea came from.

However, there's another reason why I need to sort out the mids and tops - because the band (all 4 of us) own the 4 Electrovoice speakers and it won't really be acceptable to use these speakers for my own PA Hire so I have to source alternatives without having to spend what we did on the EVs. So that's why firstly I was going to sort out a 1000W mid cab to run at 4 Ohms so that I can get the most out of the Peavey PV3800 (which can pump out 1300W @ 4 Ohms per channel). The same was going to be done for the 12" cab - 1000W for the tops @ 4 Ohms. If these were a success I'd duplicate the process. This would then give me replacement, higher powered system that would hopefully service my requirements.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree with my plans, I'd rather be told now and save myself a lot of expense and hassle in the long run.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:32pm

Originally posted by George C George C wrote:

thanks for replies to my 'stupid question', great information, some I knew - lots more confirmed what I thought..... <div id="LCS_336D0C35_8A85_403a_B9D2_65C292C39087_communicationDiv">
 
Thumbs Up

George c


There is nothing stupid about your question.

I use capacitors on any driver that is not crossed below 2.5 kHz

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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lycantheleopard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lycantheleopard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:33pm
you are indeed barking up the wrong tree imo.
 
four way to me would be the following. your subs, your fifteen mid cabs, your 12 top cabs as you call them, and whatever horn or tweeter rounds out the top end.  if only using the 12s and fifteens of the ev rig, you'd be losing a lot of upper end detail and clarity and i dont think you'd settle for that.
 
i totally understand wanting your own rig, and that is basicly what i suggested above with the two eighteens per side, two 12s perside, and a psd3006 per side.  that is three way, that is your own gear, and that would outrun the ev mids and tops very quickly.
 
what i dont quite get is why you want or think you want fifteen mids and 12 tops? that is done in a lot of larger club rigs but you would then have to buy more amps, figure out how to stack it all safely, find a horn that can keep up with that much midrange energy, and passive crossovers to go between the twelves and the tweeters or horns you will absolutely need to finish off the top end.
 
with the dual eighteen, dual 12 and one horn approach, you have a nicely stackable system, you can run one peavey to each sub cab but please be careful as i said because the eminence killamax ratings are inflated and unsafe imo, and one to the 12 and horns through a passive crossover.  or, and this is how i would do it, buy a peavey pv1500 or 900 and power the two psd 3006 horns off the outputs five and six of your crossover for ultimate control.
 
so, just to make sure we're on the same page.
 
outputs one and two each go to a peavey pv3800 which goes to a dual eighteen subwoofer cabinet.
 
outputs three and four go to left and right channels of a third peavey 3800 which powers two 12 midbass/midrange speakers per side.
 
outputs five and six go to a peavey pv900 that powers a single eminence psd3006 on each side.
 
hope that clears up my intent.
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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 9:13am
Right, okay - I understand your point but I've already got 3 x Peavey PV3800 amps, so why would I replace that with a less powerful model? Anyway, the way we stack the system is one on top of the other (sub, 15 & 12 - a stack each side of the stage) and hold them all dwn with wrench straps and they're as solid as hell. The reason for the 15s was because we couldn't afford another set of ZX3s (the 12s) at 1300 pounds sterling a pair. So to compromise we bought a set of secondhand ZX5s (15s) that became available at half that price and thinking they were going to receive a lot of the mid frequencies we didn't think it a problem.




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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 4:08pm
Ah sorry i miss read your post, the other amp would be an additional purchase. Then id have to buy another rack to house all these amps and add to the already stupidly heavy amp system that we have. All Im trying to do is make the most of the gear that Im allowed to use and try and find a way of getting the most out of what's available for me to buy and build without breaking the bank. If i can improve the system by getting it all to run at 4 ohms and making the most of the amps in a 3-way system then even better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lycantheleopard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 9:13pm
you could source a passive crossover from like..radian makes them i think, at 1.2 khz, and then your mids and highs could be powered off the third peavey, negating the need for a fouth amp.  it would probably sound 98 percent as good and be easier to set up..i just like that final bit of control..and your current crossover unit could do it so i suggested it.
 
this would go right back to your orriginal questian, how to wire up two speakers and a horn.  well, you would go from the input on the cabinet to the crossover, then out to the dual fifteens from one side, and out to the horn from the other.  most crossovers are designed for eight ohms, but i believe the above suggested radian unit can do a four ohm midrange/midbass section.
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 10:00pm
Andygee70 seems to be more of a Rave sound system whereas lycantheleopard focuses on small pubs.

Large rave sound systems require a lot of mid-bass, which is why it is common to separate the midrange into two frequencies (12-inch for higher mid-range & 15-inch for lower mid-range).

Sound systems that cater for live work (particularly rock) will use 12-inch driver in a non-horn-loaded bin with a double-eighteen inch reflex. This is usually more preferred than a 15-inch due to having the least amount of mid-bass and more extended highs.



Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Andygee70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 10:25pm
Ah i see, to the crossover is first in line to the 15s then to the HF driver if parallel? What Ohm will the cab be if all the drivers are 4 Ohm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andygee70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 10:46pm
What do you mean by rave system? Do you mean a bigger system or one dedicated to pre-recorded music? Because Im looking for a system for bands. We've got all the hardware, shure, AKG, Sennheiser and Audix mics, all the cables, DI boxes and monitors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 11:01pm

Originally posted by Andygee70 Andygee70 wrote:

Ah i see, to the crossover is first in line to the 15s then to the HF driver if parallel? What Ohm will the cab be if all the drivers are 4 Ohm?



If you use a capacitor on the high frequency driver, the nominal impedance, on two 15-inch 8-ohm drivers, with the high frequency driver is 4 ohms.

Best Regards,   
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 11:11pm

Originally posted by Andygee70 Andygee70 wrote:

What do you mean by rave system? Do you mean a bigger system or one dedicated to pre-recorded music? Because Im looking for a system for bands. We've got all the hardware, shure, AKG, Sennheiser and Audix mics, all the cables, DI boxes and monitors.


If you are not familiar with a rave sound system, they focus on using a 12 & 15-inch at different frequencies. If you are doing a live bands use either a 12 or 15-inch for midrange.

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lycantheleopard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2012 at 11:13pm
for as low as you will probably wantto cross over from a pair of 12s, i dont reccomend a capasitor, but suggest a real passive crossover.  two fifteens or twelves each eight ohm, run through a passive crossover, with an eight ohm horn driver, will end up at four ohms.  the midbass/midrange drivers usually dictate the impeedence of the cabinet because they use the most power.
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