Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Advanced Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - what is the story with patents and hiring speakers
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

what is the story with patents and hiring speakers

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
odc04r View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2006
Location: Sarfampton
Status: Offline
Points: 5483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: what is the story with patents and hiring speakers
    Posted: 12 October 2015 at 8:41am
Yes I'd agree with your figure of £50000 for a worldwide patent, and that is not including the man hours and specialist staff required to make them stick. It is never as simple as just sending off the application to the office and you'll get it all back a year later.

Then consider you need European, USA, Japan, China, and maybe even some more to make an invention truly global. The barriers to small businesses in this area are immense, hence why as IanD says only the bigger operations get to play the patent wars game.
Back to Top
IanD View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 17 January 2009
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 400
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2015 at 10:13pm
For personal use there aren't any demons to fight; patent law specifically allows exemptions for research or personal non-profit usage, in fact these can be viewed as positive from the point of view of the patent holder if they spread word of the invention.

It's where the thing is sold or distributed that matters, not where it was designed or manufactured, so patenting in China only prevents sales in China, not manufacturing. Patents are only valid in countries where they are filed; if the inventor doesn't file in countries with large potential markets, that's their problem, they shouldn't have tried to save money on patent filing costs.

But getting decent worldwide coverage with a properly written strong patent isn't cheap, we worked out that over ten years the cost averaged about £5000 a year, so £50000 per patent. In reality that means you've got to be doing a *lot* of business to make it worth doing this -- and a weak patent without wide coverage isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Now you know why most small businesses and inventors don't bother with proper patents -- it costs a fortune to file and even more to enforce against infringement. Even with big businesses (I hold getting on for 50 patents -- or at least, my employers do) the main use is to build up a patent portfolio in case of any disputes ("my patent pile's bigger than yours, don't mess with me"), and the usual result is some kind of royalty or licensing deal. Only a few very big high-profile cases with a shedload of money resting on them ever actually go to court.


Edited by IanD - 11 October 2015 at 10:30pm
Back to Top
dlyxover View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 14 June 2007
Location: Liverpool
Status: Offline
Points: 1508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlyxover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2015 at 8:34pm
Morally its not best practice in my opinion if the application is commercial.

If you make something for personal use, not losing anyone sales/income or causing any damage to said manufactures product or reputation its for yourself to fight the demons.

I think its a very valid point IanD brought up.
For it to be financial viable to pursue such a issue, one would have to be selling a volume of units and would be making some noise about it (pun intend LOL) in the process.
In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth
Back to Top
IanD View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 17 January 2009
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 400
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2015 at 3:38pm
There's no problem -- legal, moral or otherwise -- building something patented for your own personal use. If the patent isn't filed in your country there's no legal problem using it commercially, so long as you don't sell or distribute it in a country where there is a patent.

If the real product isn't available in your country there's no moral problem either because the patent holder isn't losing any sales; if it is, you have to make a decision on whether you want to take income away from them even though they can't stop you legally.

If the patent is valid in your country and you sell stuff that infringes it and the patent owner finds out -- which is likely -- you'll probably get a legal letter threatening to sue you unless you stop. But unless the loss of business to them is big enough to pay for the court costs -- which are high in patent infringement cases -- they may not actually take you to court.

I know this because we had a case where we knew one of our competitors was infringing one of our patents (they published a conference paper about it!), and after all the letters on the lines of "no we're not" "yes you are" in the end they basically said "so sue us". We looked at the cost of a patent infringement case in the US (estimate was $5M -- which you have to pay if you lose) versus the amount of business we might lose to them, and concluded it just wasn't worth it, even though we knew we were in the right.

Which I assume was the same calculation they'd made when deciding to infringe the patent, since they had one of our ex-employees working for them we knew damn well where they got the idea from...
Back to Top
_djk_ View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 23 November 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2015 at 1:33am
djk
Back to Top
TRE4U2NV View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: home
Status: Offline
Points: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRE4U2NV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:23am
ps you'll be surprised what is and isn't  copyrighted or patented companies will not shout about what has run out google patent is your guide 
IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY
Back to Top
TRE4U2NV View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: home
Status: Offline
Points: 2592
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRE4U2NV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:16am
Originally posted by S&P S&P wrote:

Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults

 

OK.  Let’s explore this.  The essence of your justification for thinking it’s morally ok to take someone else’s property is that patent law is weak and apparently unenforceable in some regions.  If the law were stronger, is it suddenly not morally

 OK?  Moral behaviour is nothing to do with the law; it’s about what is right and what is wrong.  And taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong.


if patent has run out as in the time that said product can not be replicated without prior permission then yes you could cry foul play but if the correct time has passed then that's ok to me, and should be to all as this is how technology moves on the whole point of a patent was to allow the inventor time to profit from their invention, without competition so once time has elapsed on patent then its all good to me my 2p worth
IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY
Back to Top
S&P View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 01 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:04am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.
 

LOL.  I didn’t call you dumb.  I said it was the dumbest thing I’ve heard – not the same thing.  We are all able to say dumb things occasionally, including me.  Take it as a personal insult if you have to.  I guess you’re sensitive.  I think you will find you did say it was morally OK, since you said in a previous post “I see no moral issue whatsoever, go for it”.  On that basis I think you are quite right that we are not going to be able to have a balanced and intelligent conversation.

I certainly will have a nice day – thanks.

Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/
Back to Top
GEB View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 13 November 2009
Location: East Midlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1993
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GEB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 9:23am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.


Back to Top
gorgo View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 07 October 2015
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 9:01am
I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.
Back to Top
S&P View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 01 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S&P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 8:47am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults

 

OK.  Let’s explore this.  The essence of your justification for thinking it’s morally ok to take someone else’s property is that patent law is weak and apparently unenforceable in some regions.  If the law were stronger, is it suddenly not morally OK?  Moral behaviour is nothing to do with the law; it’s about what is right and what is wrong.  And taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong.

Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/
Back to Top
gorgo View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 07 October 2015
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2015 at 8:27am
wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.045 seconds.