Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - New Bose F1 System
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

New Bose F1 System
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
MarjanM View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 10 February 2005
Location: Macedonia
Status: Offline
Points: 7816 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by thirtha thirtha wrote:

This is a little off topic, but since there is a constant debate between "point source" Vs "line array" I thought i must say this,

 ........ yes it is possible to cater to the same number of audience (1000 - 1200) with a good ground stack or "point source".

Let me give you an example. Say I have 3 STX 825 mid high cabs with 3 STX 828 cabs per side. I can handle the same number of people with this configuration. Will it sound the same as 12 T4 elements flown per side? No way. It is like comparing apples and oranges sound quality wise. But when you look at the capital cost, and the rigging cost, you will see that it makes more sense to work with the STX. The problem with the ground stack is that you really need to jack up the volume in order for the sound to reach the rear of the audience. The result is that the audience in the front tend to get plastered with the pressure eventually driving them deaf.  The T4 though will easily manage to distribute sound way better than the STX. Capital cost though is a big issue. The T4 system (24 modules and 6 subs) costs 4 times more than the STX. I have actually made a comparison between the two (STX vs T4 - same venue - same band - same number of audience) and I can say that there is no comparison between the two sound quality wise The T4 is vastly superior in terms of sound quality and over time is subject to a lot less power compression than the STX. but yes it is a breeze to rig the STX and the capital cost / rigging cost advantage stays with the STX.

Would you please forget that STX shite line of speakers. They are so inefficient and that pathetic small horn has no real pattern control. Get your self one good hornloaded top and hang it 4-5m high. For 1000-1200 people it is a deal done. You might need a few small front fills to cover the first 5-10m.
Someting with 60x40 dispersion would do that easily.

T12 in my opinion is a waste of money. It is a stupid plastic box that sound... well ... like a plastic box.

With no intention to push my product, but my line array in a hang of 4 per side will do 3-4000 people outside. And it is 2x8 inch box. 


Edited by MarjanM - 30 August 2015 at 1:29pm
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
Back to Top
Seehnav View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 67 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seehnav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by thirtha thirtha wrote:


Seehnav 

Registered User Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.

Dear Seehnav,

At the cost of transgressing the above,

Conanski's words make perfect sense as far as the F1 system is concerned.  How Bose manages to squeeze out those SPL figures out of that unit is a mystery to me. More importantly, you cannot multiply or upscale the F1 system.

If you want to go down the line array route,............ since it is now the flavor of the day, and assuming that you are a rental outfit, I suggest you look at the DB technologies DVA series, ie. the DVA T4, DVA T8 and the DVA T12. The advantage of this system is that you can keep adding numbers as time goes by, rather than being stuck with a system that has upscale limitations.

The T4, with 12 modules a side and 2 double 18 subs per side (DVA S20 / S30N) can handle a 1000 - 1200 people depending on the program material and the size of the arena. The T4 does not have RD net, the onboard hardware that is used to net work the modules, so the fancy jazz is out. The advantage of the T4 is that it is light at the hook point. 12 modules weigh just 177 Kgs / 392 LBS including the fly bar. The T4 can be combined with the T12 using the same fly bar. A lift like the Trabes 4.5 can be used. The advantage of this lift is that the setup and take down time is to the minimum. The biggest advantage of this system is that the module is powered. 

The T12 is a beast. You would need 4 T4 modules to compete with 1 T12 module. You could go in for  4 T12 modules instead of 12 T4 modules, but line array theory suggests that the longer the line, more the likely hood of a cylindrical wave forming. All this is theory of course. A single amplifier module of the T12 delivers 1420 watts, while a single T4 module delivers 410 watts. in reality though, 4 T4 modules will start to out perform the single T12 module. This could be due to the wattage being spread over a greater number of components. for example, one T12 module has 3 HF units while four T4 units add up to 8 HF units. I hope you get the point.

The T8 strikes the middle path between the T4 and the T12. But to start off, it would make sense to stick to the T4 modules. They can always be used with the T12 modules once your operations get larger.

There is a formula that I have learnt the hard way when it comes to flying small format line arrays. For a size of 1000 - 1200 people, increasing the lift height beyond 14 ft (4.25 Mts) is meaningless. It is also meaningless to go below 6ft (1.8 Mts) thus the sweet spot is  confined to 8 Ft. The game lies in pumping as much power possible in between that 8 ft. This is where the T12 will trump. You can cramp in up-to 6 T 12 modules and now you will see that power wise, the T4 modules will bite the dust. The T12 will be cruising along while the T4 will start to run out of breath, Having said that, I am not sure if the number of elements are enough for that mythical "cylindrical wave" to form. (as per Meyer it is not possible for a line array to form a cylindrical wave)

 http://meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm

( also take a look at the  RCF HDL 20 A)

This would be all nice if I needed the system for a crowd of 2000+ people and have big truck. I think my question was a little bit wrong , I was interested for about 300 people and can loaded it to my station car.... 
Back to Top
Seehnav View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 67 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seehnav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by thirtha thirtha wrote:


Seehnav 

Registered User Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.

Dear Seehnav,

At the cost of transgressing the above,

Conanski's words make perfect sense as far as the F1 system is concerned.  How Bose manages to squeeze out those SPL figures out of that unit is a mystery to me. More importantly, you cannot multiply or upscale the F1 system.

If you want to go down the line array route,............ since it is now the flavor of the day, and assuming that you are a rental outfit, I suggest you look at the DB technologies DVA series, ie. the DVA T4, DVA T8 and the DVA T12. The advantage of this system is that you can keep adding numbers as time goes by, rather than being stuck with a system that has upscale limitations.

The T4, with 12 modules a side and 2 double 18 subs per side (DVA S20 / S30N) can handle a 1000 - 1200 people depending on the program material and the size of the arena. The T4 does not have RD net, the onboard hardware that is used to net work the modules, so the fancy jazz is out. The advantage of the T4 is that it is light at the hook point. 12 modules weigh just 177 Kgs / 392 LBS including the fly bar. The T4 can be combined with the T12 using the same fly bar. A lift like the Trabes 4.5 can be used. The advantage of this lift is that the setup and take down time is to the minimum. The biggest advantage of this system is that the module is powered. 

The T12 is a beast. You would need 4 T4 modules to compete with 1 T12 module. You could go in for  4 T12 modules instead of 12 T4 modules, but line array theory suggests that the longer the line, more the likely hood of a cylindrical wave forming. All this is theory of course. A single amplifier module of the T12 delivers 1420 watts, while a single T4 module delivers 410 watts. in reality though, 4 T4 modules will start to out perform the single T12 module. This could be due to the wattage being spread over a greater number of components. for example, one T12 module has 3 HF units while four T4 units add up to 8 HF units. I hope you get the point.

The T8 strikes the middle path between the T4 and the T12. But to start off, it would make sense to stick to the T4 modules. They can always be used with the T12 modules once your operations get larger.

There is a formula that I have learnt the hard way when it comes to flying small format line arrays. For a size of 1000 - 1200 people, increasing the lift height beyond 14 ft (4.25 Mts) is meaningless. It is also meaningless to go below 6ft (1.8 Mts) thus the sweet spot is  confined to 8 Ft. The game lies in pumping as much power possible in between that 8 ft. This is where the T12 will trump. You can cramp in up-to 6 T 12 modules and now you will see that power wise, the T4 modules will bite the dust. The T12 will be cruising along while the T4 will start to run out of breath, Having said that, I am not sure if the number of elements are enough for that mythical "cylindrical wave" to form. (as per Meyer it is not possible for a line array to form a cylindrical wave)

 http://meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm

( also take a look at the  RCF HDL 20 A)

Or you can use one good horn loaded top to do all that.

Offcourse a hornloaded top will perform better , but I edited the question...
Back to Top
MarjanM View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 10 February 2005
Location: Macedonia
Status: Offline
Points: 7816 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:14pm
300 people?
4 single 18s and 4 12+1 boxes.
Done.
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
Back to Top
MarjanM View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 10 February 2005
Location: Macedonia
Status: Offline
Points: 7816 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:15pm
Where are you located?
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
Back to Top
mini-mad View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 13 July 2012
Location: london
Status: Offline
Points: 6903 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:29pm
He wants the bose because of its compactness...

Why not have a look at Tony Wilkes Q12, he done a double version too. So a pair of Q212s per side for ultra compactness and you'll just nees either 2x 4kw amps or a single 8kw amp @4000w @2ohms.

...for bass anyway...
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
Back to Top
all bass View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 11 October 2012
Location: the Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1855 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote all bass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:21pm
I really don't understand why everyone needs to jump on the bandwagon to do some Bose bashing.

I, myself have been very unimpressed in Bose's current and previous 'pro audio' offerings. But, i do see that these have a certain value and a place in the bussiness. The brand name is very well known and will get you work because of it. A lot of client's know Bose from very expensive home theater, headphones, phone doc's, etc, and will associate the high price with a quality product.

I am quite certain that the late Tony Wilkes q212 and his 2x8+1 or 4x4" colums are an improvement in sound quality. But diy gear just misses that little badge with a household name manufacturer that is required for certain jobs.

Just my 2c
https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/
Back to Top
mini-mad View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 13 July 2012
Location: london
Status: Offline
Points: 6903 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:35pm
...fair point.
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
Back to Top
colboy View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 15 February 2015
Location: Dorset
Status: Offline
Points: 51 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by all bass all bass wrote:

I really don't understand why everyone needs to jump on the bandwagon to do some Bose bashing.

I, myself have been very unimpressed in Bose's current and previous 'pro audio' offerings. But, i do see that these have a certain value and a place in the bussiness. The brand name is very well known and will get you work because of it. A lot of client's know Bose from very expensive home theater, headphones, phone doc's, etc, and will associate the high price with a quality product.

I am quite certain that the late Tony Wilkes q212 and his 2x8+1 or 4x4" colums are an improvement in sound quality. But diy gear just misses that little badge with a household name manufacturer that is required for certain jobs.

Just my 2c

I agree, my daughter sells a lot of L1/2 systems, mainly because they are very portable and as you say , the name, however I have yet to be impressed by them, I was at a wedding yesterday and they had an L2, it was ok for what it is, but it just doesnt do it for me.
If it flies floats or fxxxs, rent it.
Back to Top
Wikl109 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 29 April 2009
Location: Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 969 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wikl109 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2015 at 1:23am
all bass, great post, spot on.
Cheers, Chris.
Back to Top
all bass View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 11 October 2012
Location: the Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 1855 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote all bass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2015 at 1:59am
Originally posted by Seehnav Seehnav wrote:

I have station car and my crowd is about 300/400 dancing people , drive in stuff ***

Have you considered Nexo PS10 +LS400/500 bass? That's a very good sounding(with controller ofcourse) relatively small setup. Nexo is very rider friendly, can be cross hired, and has good resale value.
https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/
Back to Top
thirtha View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 12 November 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 77 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2015 at 10:26am
Dear Marjan,

Yes I agree with you when you say that the STX is shite. Unfortunately the penetration of Harman in India is so good, and the brand name of JBL is so strong, that once the audience / client sees the logo, the system automatically gains +6 db. The show i was talking about in my previous post, the client was happy that a "JBL system" was being used for the band. The band though had no option but to "work" with what was given to them. Lucky for me, I do not own the JBL STX. I just hired the system from a JBL fan.

As far as the T 12 is concerned, yes the entire DVA range is made out of plastic.  The T12 has a strong aluminum skeleton that has re enforced the entire chassis of the module. For a small format line array weight is a critical factor. Cramping in a 12 inch woofer, two 6.5 inch mid drivers, and three high frequency drivers (1.5 inch diaphragm with a 1 inch exit) and then the amplifier module that can handle 1000+ watts is no mean feat - and still keeping the weight below 30 kgs. The amazing fact is that the T12 it can be used with the entire DVA range. That is some clever designing no doubt. Yes, I agree with you that there is a loss in quality when compared to a birch box but it is a compromise we have to deal with.

 






Edited by thirtha - 31 August 2015 at 7:05pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.