Anyone use a biscuit jointer for cabs? |
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herke
Registered User Joined: 04 November 2009 Location: Huddersfield Status: Offline Points: 171 |
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Posted: 09 February 2016 at 10:04am |
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Hi,
Pretty much as the title. Would there be any down sides to using biscuits in a sub? Not as the only thing holding it together, just for aligning all the joints whilst gluing up. I would still screw the joints. My only worry would be if a biscuit wasn't fully glued in it might rattle? Not seen any used in the builds on here. Thoughts? Thanks |
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MattStolton
Old Croc Joined: 04 September 2010 Location: Walthamstow Status: Offline Points: 4234 |
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Biscuits shouldn't rattle, as their slot should be reasonably tight to start with, i.e. use the right size biscuits in the right size hole.
They get tighter, as they swell with glue, to make the fit and joint better. You must use fresh, dry biscuits, to maximise this swelling effect. Once the glue goes off (hardens/cures) the swollen size is then set, by the solidified glue filling the pores of the biscuit. I believe the glue choice to be a bit critical, certainly "Uncle Norm" seemed to always use the Lamello stuff, but I am sure he was given it. AFAIK water soluble PVA wood glues are required to get the biscuits to swell. Equally, you don't put glue in the bottom of the well, you actually want it smeared on the sides of the rebate well, so it is in contact with the sides of the biscuit, for maximum surface area that is getting "wet", and therefore swelling. Works in two ways, firstly it is technically an increase in glued surface area, so more glue doing what it does, but also from adding some "keying" to the joint. I have heard a few use them, but doesn't help that much with speed of manufacture, which is all important for many, especially those doing it for a living. You could probably get away with brads rather than screws, which wins some time back. Now, P series Lamello biscuits....... Or really kinky - Invis MX2. Completely invisible bolted connectors. Comes with "Sonic Screwdriver" (well, to my 4 YO sproglet, you could quite easily pass it off as a sonic screwdriver), which has to be cool.
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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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I have experimented with using a biscuit jointer throughout a cab as an alternative to rebating; it sort of works OK, and gives stronger joints than screws alone, but it's definitely not quicker.
Of course I've just got a cheap Clarke one from Machine Mart that isn't very far removed, design-wise, from the angle grinder it's clearly based on - it's quite heavy, noisy, jerks violently on start-up and has all the subtlety and precision while in use of, well, an angle grinder. I'm sure the Festool version (their Domino system, I suppose) would be a joy to use rather than something of an ordeal. They can be handy for getting a solid fixing between two panels that join at a shallow angle, where screws would be difficult to line up and pilot-drill correctly. But if you've rebated the sides in and cut the mitres accurately, there isn't much need for that anyway.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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herke
Registered User Joined: 04 November 2009 Location: Huddersfield Status: Offline Points: 171 |
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So do you think it would be possible to make a cabinet with just biscuits, brads and glue? I already have a jointer I use for other jobs round the house.
I'm going to build a pair of THAM12s, but they are pretty much for personal use so won't see much abuse.
There are some 45 degree angles on the THAM that look like a pain to get screws in... and I hate filling screw holes! |
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Joe Grime
Young Croc Joined: 28 February 2004 Location: E London Status: Offline Points: 850 |
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Helps with sheer strength
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ceharden
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 05 June 2005 Location: Southampton Status: Offline Points: 11776 |
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I'm a fan of biscuits, really helps to make sure all the panels end up where you want them. They're particularly good if you want to build cabs without screw holes. I've done several just using biscuits, glue and clamps.
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Centauri
Old Croc Joined: 29 November 2004 Location: Newcastle Aus Status: Offline Points: 1792 |
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If you were joining perpendicular panels with biscuits, I would imagine it would be pain getting the positioning right on the flat panel, although I have seen photos of a Labsub being built this way. I use rebates for perpendicular joins, but use biscuits extensively where panels meet at their ends at varying angles, such as the sides of a horn - keeps the join straight & increases strength.
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herke
Registered User Joined: 04 November 2009 Location: Huddersfield Status: Offline Points: 171 |
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Sorry if this is an idiot question Joe, how do you line up the biscuit holes on the side panel to exactly match the ones on the edges like in the picture? Do you draw the exact layout on the side piece and then just make the slot dead centre? I would have thought with the above that if you are even 1mm out on any of the holes it wouldnt fit? Basically just wondering how you reference each hole...
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KidCreole
Old Croc Joined: 06 November 2013 Location: London (East) Status: Offline Points: 3600 |
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Screws and glue is good enough. Just use more screws than you would biscuits
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Mykey Wattco
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ceharden
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 05 June 2005 Location: Southampton Status: Offline Points: 11776 |
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Side to side you've got a bit to play with because the slots cut for the biscuits are slightly wider. All you do is offer the two panels up (or measure) and put a pencil mark on both in the same place. What's more critical is getting them the same distance from the edge of the panel. This is achieved just by working on a flat surface and just making sure the base of the biscuit cutter is flush with the edge. I don't find them much more time consuming than drilling and countersinking for screws. Edited by ceharden - 09 February 2016 at 11:43pm |
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shagnasty
Old Croc Joined: 30 July 2007 Location: Guildford, UK Status: Offline Points: 7685 |
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if you don't have the Festool Biscuit cutter, I can see a world of pain here.
IMHO for a right angle butt join biscuit offer no strength advantage whatsoever over PU glue and 40mm pins from an air gun. if you want to join 2 panels in the flat, maybe, but in the application described you are adding time and grif to no advantage. If you are making a folded horn and can't be bothered to rebate (I rebate to save me marking out side panels) I can see a few dowels would help hold the facets in place, but dowels are easy tech, you drill the end of the panel, and use marker pins to mark out the sides..., biscuits aren't that tight so as provide a really positive location and unless you have a nice machine are a bitch to line up!
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ceharden
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 05 June 2005 Location: Southampton Status: Offline Points: 11776 |
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I've got a Makita biscuit cutter, with practice you can get accurate results quite easily and the biscuits are a nice tight fit. If I do a whole cab with them, you can easily do a complete dry fit of the whole cab and it will stay together on it's own. That's one of the things I like about them.
I'm happy to admit in a production environment they're not the right tool for the job, that's where a CNC machine and rebated joints come in. However for prototypes, small runs and especially hi-fi cabs they have their uses.
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