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More Punishers or Swap to SBH?

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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2016 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

8 x SBH would be larger and drop lower, i recon the punishers would give similar spl down to about 45Hz though.  

So that would be 1 for the SBH then? Size isnt an issue for me, I already move double punishers around. I don't really see the punishers hitting similar spl as a win because they require more amps to do it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rosssss224 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2016 at 2:33pm
go sbh or forever wonder "what if?"


just my thoughts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2016 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

8 x SBH would be larger and drop lower, i recon the punishers would give similar spl down to about 45Hz though.  

So that would be 1 for the SBH then? Size isnt an issue for me, I already move double punishers around. I don't really see the punishers hitting similar spl as a win because they require more amps to do it.  

If SPL and extension are you main targets and you use big piles of them then yeah, build a lot of big 18" horns, or 2 x 12" horns.  

The main difference between the 2 is the SBH is tuned lower, longer path length, more cab volume required, more mouth area required to work well, if that extra size is not an issue for you then go for it.  With the longer path length you need a larger mouth to support it so 4 x punishers will work better than 2 sbh as the shorter path on the punisher means less mouth area required to get close to the optimum horn .   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2016 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Then why is the horn flare for the comp 60x40? 

Edit: After some research, I confirmed what I already thought, Its designed as a 60x40 box. I know from using it that there is no way its got 80 degrees of dispersion.  Two a side should be no problem.

I would need to experiment with it but my best guess for the splay angle would be 50 degrees so that would be 110 degrees dispersion with two boxes. 

I don't think i'm alone in thinking you can array 3x XT8 horns ... http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/csgal14tp/bigbang20092003.jpg




Look at the distance between boxes to make a functional array. Also, I've measured the box, the -6dB points are not at all consistent across frequency bands – in fact, the isobars for the Xtro, if they were ever done, would be pretty horrific.

As an example, it's not identical but the Stable Audio XT8-alike horn measured as 120 degrees at its upper cutoff, and down to some 180+ degrees at the lower end.

Edited by toastyghost - 13 December 2016 at 5:25pm
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2016 at 10:51am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Then why is the horn flare for the comp 60x40? 

Edit: After some research, I confirmed what I already thought, Its designed as a 60x40 box. I know from using it that there is no way its got 80 degrees of dispersion.  Two a side should be no problem.

I would need to experiment with it but my best guess for the splay angle would be 50 degrees so that would be 110 degrees dispersion with two boxes. 

I don't think i'm alone in thinking you can array 3x XT8 horns ... http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/csgal14tp/bigbang20092003.jpg




Look at the distance between boxes to make a functional array. Also, I've measured the box, the -6dB points are not at all consistent across frequency bands – in fact, the isobars for the Xtro, if they were ever done, would be pretty horrific.

As an example, it's not identical but the Stable Audio XT8-alike horn measured as 120 degrees at its upper cutoff, and down to some 180+ degrees at the lower end.

Yeah I will agree that its not 60 degrees across its full bandwidth. We originally crossed ours at 3.6k but the beaming at the top end was a real issue so that dropped to 3k. We are going to be switching over to the mk3 which mykey claims have less beaming at the top end.

If i'm honest I don't have much of an idea of whats happening at the bottom end of the xt8. Is it hard to take accurate measurements of the -6db points? I have an ecm8000. Do I need an acoustically treated space? 

If its not too difficult I might take some measurements of the mk2 and the mk3 and post the results. I'm sure some people will be interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2016 at 8:08pm
Xtro is 60x40 dispersion. Go for 12 punishers and 4 xtro's, this is a perfect system for 1000 people at good volume. The punishers really attack and boom but don't drop too low. You really won't get below 40hz. But that is not a bad thing. They sound really fast due to their 12" driver! Much faster than an 18" driver ever will be.



We need more SPL!
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2016 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Dutchman Dutchman wrote:

Xtro is 60x40 dispersion. Go for 12 punishers and 4 xtro's, this is a perfect system for 1000 people at good volume. The punishers really attack and boom but don't drop too low. You really won't get below 40hz. But that is not a bad thing. They sound really fast due to their 12" driver! Much faster than an 18" driver ever will be.


Iv read this a lot of times but how true is this in reality? Its the kind of thing that makes sense in your head but iv never heard of someone actually testing it. Does the much higher BL and and much lower qts of a v18-1000 make up for it being an 18?

Iv heard that the f221 is faster and tighter sounding than the f218 which totally goes against that idea. 

The problem for me is I live in Perth. I cant go out and listen to an SBH system. I have to go off other peoples opinions and hope they are not talking out of their ass.  

Can anyone who has heard both the SBH and the Punisher comment on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEB88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2016 at 12:45pm
I've owned SBH's before and heard punishers plenty of times and I would go for the SBH out of the 2, here's my pros/cons:

SBH Pro's
Drop lower
Sound better
Drivers readily available

SBH Con's
Size/weight

Punisher Pro's
Light and managable

Punisher con's
Don't go as low
Don't sound as good
Ciare driver doesn't seem to be available anymore (in the uk anyway)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote empiresoundsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2016 at 8:08am
Personally having heard both, I don't rate SBH all that much.
Puns offer a tighter response and just sound more punchy, plus they're not a massive box to have to hump about. 
Failed DJ and fumbling through the world of pro audio. Give me a thumb and make me feel better:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 December 2016 at 5:48pm
You should use Beyma 12lx60 V2 in punishers , better than ciare and more common. They are also lower wattage , so less amps. 
We need more SPL!
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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2016 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Dutchman Dutchman wrote:

You should use Beyma 12lx60 V2 in punishers , better than ciare and more common. They are also lower wattage , so less amps. 
Grey is Beyma, Black is 12.00sw, 800 watt per driver in a block of 4 punishers. I think im going to stick with the 12.00sw as its a lot flatter and the 12.00sw is built like a tank. I also already own 8 12.00sw.

Also thanks for the video you PMed me although its not easy to get much information from it. It doesn't tell me much about physicality and tightness which are things I really care about. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2016 at 10:42am
Beyma gives a more rounded warm sound and will play a bit higher than the Ciare.  Im not convinced the cone will hold up though, and it had much shorter xmax so wont deliver the same spl down low as the Ciare. It has slightly better sensitivity higher up and slightly less lower down, measured response is similar to that simulation but black being the Beyma and grey the Ciare.  Personally i would stick with the Ciare.    
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