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I wish my wife was as dirty as this mains supply

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studio45 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 March 2017 at 3:15pm
Now then, mains power gurus:
I've just installed my rig in a venue that's right next to an AM radio transmitter. Like 20 metres away across the back yard. 30m multicore+power has to be deployed down one wall nearly parallel to the antenna, and long XLRs are often connected to the stage box. Less than ideal.
As long as everything's properly grounded there are no big problems. You can faintly hear some speech with your ear right next to the tweeter horns. However, when any cable with even a slightly dodgy ground is used, the radio stations come through loud and frickin' clear. But intermittently. It is *maddening*. Obviously all my cables are as good as they can be, but, well.....I couldn't afford Neutrik on everything Cry
The transmitter sends at 1035 and 1233 kHz. I think I need to filter the mains supply. What would be the best strategy? Big filter in the consumer unit, or smaller filters/ filtered power strips for the line-level gear?
Cheers :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

Now then, mains power gurus:
I've just installed my rig in a venue that's right next to an AM radio transmitter. Like 20 metres away across the back yard. 30m multicore+power has to be deployed down one wall nearly parallel to the antenna, and long XLRs are often connected to the stage box. Less than ideal.
As long as everything's properly grounded there are no big problems. You can faintly hear some speech with your ear right next to the tweeter horns. However, when any cable with even a slightly dodgy ground is used, the radio stations come through loud and frickin' clear. But intermittently. It is *maddening*. Obviously all my cables are as good as they can be, but, well.....I couldn't afford Neutrik on everything Cry
The transmitter sends at 1035 and 1233 kHz. I think I need to filter the mains supply. What would be the best strategy? Big filter in the consumer unit, or smaller filters/ filtered power strips for the line-level gear?
Cheers :)


Is every single connection in your setup balanced? That is your best immediate defense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 5:22pm
I used to have an old HH guitar amp that picked up Russian radio. To be fair it was only faint, and probably sounded better than my playing.
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studio45 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 6:15pm
Yes, all interconnects balanced. There's just so much field strength it is testing the CMRR of *everything*. And if a wobbly connection goes unbalanced, or un-grounded, you know about it right away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spongebob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 6:36pm
Pin steel mesh to walls and ground?
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studio45 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 7:20pm
I've used small mains filters in the past to cure guitar amps of this problem. That's why I think it might be the solution again. Just not sure if I need to spring for the expensive high-current DIN rail modules and a sparky, or if cheaper local filtering for the low-powered signal processing gear is a valid option. I mean, the wiring might just pick up more RF on the way from the breaker board to the stage - there are some long cable runs.
To add another question to the bill, should we think about trying to improve the electrical ground of the building as a whole? Hammer in a few copper rods outside and clamp some earth wires to them, rather than rely on the water pipes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 70,s hero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

I've used small mains filters in the past to cure guitar amps of this problem. That's why I think it might be the solution again. Just not sure if I need to spring for the expensive high-current DIN rail modules and a sparky, or if cheaper local filtering for the low-powered signal processing gear is a valid option. I mean, the wiring might just pick up more RF on the way from the breaker board to the stage - there are some long cable runs.
To add another question to the bill, should we think about trying to improve the electrical ground of the building as a whole? Hammer in a few copper rods outside and clamp some earth wires to them, rather than rely on the water pipes?

If you decide to go for that option (which I assume will do something) then you will need an electrician, as I understand it there are differing methods to provide an earth to a building, as you say some have grounding rods, some use the sheath and some use the negative wire (on the incoming main)I think (correct me if I am wrong someone) but importantly the RCD (if fitted and any other safety device fitted to your consumer board will (hopefully) have been tested including earth continuity. the safety devices rely upon the phases between plus 120 acv zero which is earth and minus 120 vac, so changing the earth may effect the  safety devices. An electrician is usually required to carry out works to the earth continuity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 8:10pm
Oh I feel for you. Mobile Disco days in the 70's in pubs near Heathrow. Citronic Avon airport radio model.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I-shen Soundboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

30m multicore+power has to be deployed down one wall nearly parallel to the antenna

Conductive conduit, suitably earthed, should deal with your biggest receiver. As you say, everything's at the limit of CM rejection, so beef up the sheilding with a long faraday cage.
Steel mesh, on or in the walls, or even in wallpaper (if you can find any) is a more industrial solution, but you'll bugger up everyone's mobile (cell) phone reception

Edit: If you do decide to invest in more cables, consider using "starquad", twisted balanced pairs: Supposedly good for magnetic field CM rejection, used in broadcast a lot (they've got the budget for it).

Edited by I-shen Soundboy - 22 March 2017 at 8:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 8:57pm
Must be this one, a kilowatt or so into an old-school bit of wire off a factory chimney...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/sheffield-mf.php

Was this a one-off (too late now) or a regular gig?

A few notes to get you thinking:

It's more likely to be getting into signal cables than the mains supply.

For RF immunity the cable screening has to be very good, so it's worth checking none of your pin 1 connections have pulled off.
Also, any poor or oxidised connection can become a rectifying junction and behave like a 1920's crystal radio set (look up the "rusty bolt effect").

Track down which piece of equipment - mixer, system controller, DJ console (most likely) is picking the signals up, and report back.

Some modern kit has no immunity and the only way to fix it is to add filtering to its inputs and outputs.

These things can be cured, but usually only by people with both Audio and RF systems experience.

An "earth" at radio frequencies isn't the same as an earth at 50Hz.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kedwardsleisure Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 10:56pm
I used to pick up minicab drivers with my organ
Kevin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I-shen Soundboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2017 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by kedwardsleisure kedwardsleisure wrote:

I used to pick up minicab drivers with my organ


Just reposting your comment for posterity; You'll probably want to delete it when you read it back 😅
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