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Pro light & Sound @ Messe, 2017.

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corell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 6:40am
Originally posted by Darkstar Darkstar wrote:


However I definitely don't get how RCF and DB technologies got away just fine with their +20dB level, and as I already mentioned they were further away from the measurement mic, for the whole 4 days of PL+S.

They pay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 11:18am
All demo rigs should be force fed with exactly the same music and mixes by the shows organisers--this is the only way to have a level playing field, then if any of the manufacturers engineers want to f-ck it up then they are welcome to do so.
At least this way potential buyers get a real true picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darkstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

Originally posted by Darkstar Darkstar wrote:


However I definitely don't get how RCF and DB technologies got away just fine with their +20dB level, and as I already mentioned they were further away from the measurement mic, for the whole 4 days of PL+S.

They pay.

Yeah, exactly as I thought...
Bass =/= Enough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rosssss224 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 11:32am
Although I agree its there product to show off however they want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Darkstar Darkstar wrote:



However I definitely don't get how RCF and DB technologies got away just fine with their +20dB level, and as I already mentioned they were further away from the measurement mic, for the whole 4 days of PL+S.

Money talks. 


Best Regards, 

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:25pm
RCF has the biggest booth of them all, plus they pay for that extra stage outside. So money talks, like Elliot said.

When i asked last year for a booth, they told me no problem, but when i asked for a spot outside they told me no free spot in the next 3 years. So we decided not to go to the show.
Then we came to the PSL and realized the second stage was half empty. I got really pissed off.

What was funny it that show organizers measures the SPL A weighted, so basically all that bass from Funktion1 was not measured at all. It was way louder then any other rig and still stayed in the SPL limit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:38pm
Yep, some of the rigs take the proverbial with their bass level. It's odd too, on some days it was going red at 105dBA and others at 100.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 1:54pm

A lot of manufactures use loudness as the key to sales. They realise some soundmen will buy a loudspeaker system based on sheer volume over sound quality. So it is not surprising to hear some companies run their systems just a little too ragged in order to get their attention. Manufactures realise those who own systems that lack bass will more than likely find themselves gravitating to wards a system offering a lot of bass.

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 5:02pm
What i was saying is that Funktion One realized that they can push their subs way louder then the rest and stay well within SPL limits. Because A weighted is high passed at about 150hz. Not sure about the exact frequency, but it basically dont hear the subs at all.
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 5:50pm

If I remember correctly, A-Weighting is -3 dB @ 500 Hz.


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Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rosssss224 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2017 at 5:54pm
-40dB @ 30Hz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheFuzzChaosBear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 3:58pm
Hey Guys,
I am new here. To be honest I just could not resist leaving my two cents to the given topic.

To clearify: I work for the german distributor of dBTechnologies and RCF. I made the Audio/Video content and was involved in tuning the system.

Your discussion shows, its hard :D

To do a follow up:

MarjanM:
Quote Rcf was sounding way better then any other year.
thx :)

toastyghost:
Quote I know they had a hard time with noise limit which didn't seem to affect certain manufacturers so much? RCF were way, way over everyone else's volume level although it was by far the best demo in terms of content and result.
Nope.. There was a company on site, doing a very precise measurement according to german law (DIN 15905-5). The limit was set to an overall dosis over the 10min slot. I dont remember the exact values, but the companies and the fair was very (very!!!11) seriously about keeping that all correct. We pushed them very hard to define rules in the last years. Since for example function one had (as you noticed) lots of bass, they added an overall limitation (without dosis/avg) C Weighted at the third day. In Addition they made a difference measurment for each system. Each slot had its own calibration. The values on the screen where correct during all days. In Average we were the ones, that never exceeded what was allowed. On the last two days, there were some systems shut down during demo because they exceeded max SPL/time.
About the final Result: THX :D

ArthurG:
Quote oooh HDL30A with their 2200W PMPO bullshit (in pure Digipro/RCF tradition) and their 9002 subs heavily clipping during the demo.
You are right, and wrong at the same time.
HDL30/9006 is powered with Pascal Amps. So nothing exclusive. D-Line Series is Budget oriented. You are right, there where some limiters on. On the other hand, we need less power sockets ;b
If you compare to a TT+ system for example, there you find the last 10% of performance you miss over here.
In general, you are completely right. Its a shame that war started. Its like with the loudness war. No one is bold enough to make the first step. I see that because of online comparison just by numbers. 

Darkstar:
Quote RCF, as mentioned earlier in this thread, pushed their system way over the limit which everyone else was keeping and it didn't sound that clean to me. The timing was horrible, it did deliver SPL-wise but definitely not a system that I would listen to all day long. The fact they were also further away from the measurement mic kind of tilted me as well, kind of hard to tell the difference between systems when you're 10-20dB louder at all times.
DB technologies was much cleaner in my opinion, although they also were above the limit.
As mentioned above, measurement was correct. We smaarted the system for timealignment. Althought we noticed some problems with the system itself. Those vere beta cabinets wich had some issues. Info aside: the problems where identified, thats why the final shipment was delayed multiple times. The Sounddesign is even better now.

studio45:
Quote Personally, I wouldn't play any modern FM-radio-Pop recordings to demonstrate a system's capabilities unless I knew the client would need to hear it. Judgements about the artistic content of such records aside, it can't tell you anything about the dynamics or subtleties of the system - just how loud it can go without breaking. It's all super-maximised and frankly sounds terrible at high volume.  All you get is three-and-a-half minutes of RAWRRRRRRR and then ringing ears.

Yep, thats the second reason why we decided to "plot" the demo as you saw/heard. Doing some Acoustical/Vocal Stuff for the more audiophile people first. Keeping the measurement dosis low. btw. I always wonder why we are the only ones showing the Tops Fullrange first without subs.
With the low average we are then able to show the system with festival volume wich is something we get asked for VERY often. 
I found the song on youtube and asked the guys if I can buy the tracks without dynamics and mastering. I took those premixed stems and just adapted the volumes. Without additional compression/mastering to have exactly the dynamic range you expext from a live performance.

Darkstar:
Quote RCF had a damn band recorded purposely for their demo and yet it sounded way worse, especially when all the instruments were playing.

Quote However I definitely don't get how RCF and DB technologies got away just fine with their +20dB level, and as I already mentioned they were further away from the measurement mic, for the whole 4 days of PL+S.
As mentioned above, the song was not recorded for that purpose. I just bought the permission to use it. To be honest, if you compare that mix to any (I mean ANY) other heavy mastered MIX, my personal opinion is: it sounds very good ;)

...aaaaaand thats exactly the point. Music is very subjective. 
The decision to avoid all the typical songs you know from all the demos is to be uncomparable. We made like 100 internal discussions about how to present the systemin an adequate way for professionals and high profile users.
The point is, after 5 years where I was involved in the demos, its impossible to do that.
The Outdoor Demo at PL+S ist for musicians and DJs, its Infotainment. 
If you are a professional and seriously interested, its no problem to arrange a demo at your site, invite a customer to a festival where a system is in real use or come to our showroom where we can do shootouts and everything we/you want to do. Be it in Germany or at the factory in Reggio Emilia.

And to make that clear: we never paid a cent, to be allowed to break the rules! In fact, we where 2016 the only ones the fair could contact because of complaints in volume because we were the only ones with a person standing outside during the whole day. I repeat, we pushed them to introduce some rules!

See you next year outdoors :D

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