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Skating rink sound system upgrade

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 4:18pm
The crossover frequency is 100Hz

Agreed perhaps the other speakers should be larger and near the subs.

Maybe the 12" version of the QSC powered speakers will work unless there is a better powered speaker or perhaps non-powered speakers would be best.

Concerning the G subs I don't think it is possible to put subs anywhere else but in the four corners.

So that would be two G subs per location, right?

If it isn't possible to do 8 separate locations can I do four G subs in each corner?

The amps aren't going into limiting.

That said I have heard one skating rink system that used a sub in each of the four corners with 8 speakers spaced around the rink which has one top above each sub and it sounds great.

Now would building the cabinets and using the drivers in this topic be better?

http://forum.speakerplans.com/new-g-sub-build-for-lowrider-18_topic60225.html

Seems to have a slightly lower F3

Edited by Tube Radio - 25 June 2017 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 11:17pm
I think the ratio of 14 tops to 4 bass cabs probably isn't doing you any favours. If you can I would double up on the bass bins and power them with some beefier amps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 11:28pm
Agreed more subs are needed.

Another thing about it is if I build the cabs in the topic I linked to the driver is the Peavey Low Rider 18 so if a speaker should blow I can just get a replacement basket versus the whole speaker. Also it is available in the USA, whereas the best recommended driver for the stock G sub plans isn't available in the USA that I know of.

Edited by Tube Radio - 25 June 2017 at 11:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 11:57pm
look up posts here by SonicXtasy. he's had some threads about sound in roller skating rinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fat_brstd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 12:46am
Run the tops full range, this which will help even out low mid coverage, maybe a 50/60hz high pass at most. Subs run from 40-120hz would be enough to give some extra weight and you need to check subs for interference. Try it with only 1 set of subs running and see if the coverage is reasonably even. Then try running both together flipping the phase on one end and see where the bass moves about to. If you are having issues with sub its probably some kind of interference pattern causing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 4:31am
Originally posted by fat_brstd fat_brstd wrote:

Run the tops full range, this which will help even out low mid coverage, maybe a 50/60hz high pass at most. Subs run from 40-120hz would be enough to give some extra weight and you need to check subs for interference. Try it with only 1 set of subs running and see if the coverage is reasonably even. Then try running both together flipping the phase on one end and see where the bass moves about to. If you are having issues with sub its probably some kind of interference pattern causing it.

Most of the issue lies with the subs only being in two corners given that as you go closer to the subs the bass increases.

For the current subs I use the 30Hz high pass filter in the amps to keep the subs better protected as I know if the horns were to unload it could cause driver damage at higher outputs unless that is not the case with the Yorkville subs.

Up in the DJ booth for some songs that have a part where the bass goes down in frequency like someone turning the dial of an audio generator lower in frequency I can 

1. Hear the bass.
2. Hear the bass start to decrease in level.
3. Start feeling vibrations from the subs without actually hearing anything.

Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

look up posts here by SonicXtasy. he's had some threads about sound in roller skating rinks.

Thanks will have to search his posts tomorrow.

I do like the G subs as it looks like a design that won't cost a lot to build and won't take up a lot of space. 

Plus given the rink owner also owns a construction company getting the boxes built is no problem.


Edited by Tube Radio - 26 June 2017 at 4:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fat_brstd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 6:11am
Its normal for speakers to get louder the closer you get to them, nothing you can do about that.

If you get the K8's doing some of the bass by lowering the high pass you have on them then they will provide more even coverage of the room across the bass frequencies. The issue you have is that the bass is only coming from 2 sources that are miles apart which dont cover the room enough. If you get all of the K8's to play bass as well then all of a sudden you have 14 more sources of bass which will help fill out the areas the subs aren't reaching.

Using a 30hz high pass from an amp to protect the subs is not really going to cut it. The HPF on an amp is usually 12db/oct at best, really you want to be running something a bit stepper/higher up than that. Amp HPF is more to stop the amp amplifying pointless frequencies rather than protect speakers. You would be much better off using the 40hz HPF on the DBX 234. Run 2 signals into the crossover, run subs on 1 channel from 40hz to around 120hz. Run the other channel from 45/50hz into the K8's.

The bit about subs causing vibrations that you can feel but cant hear is it playing notes that go below your hearing range which shows that you really dont need to go as low as 30hz because all you get is room vibration rather than the bass sound you are after.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 10:53am
I agree about the loudness of the speakers, but in a proper setup the change in loudness shouldn't be as noticeable.

The frequency response of the K8 is
Frequency Response (-6 dB) 66 Hz - 18 kHz.
Frequency Range    (-10 dB) 61 Hz - 20 kHz.

That low end response sucks for an 8" driver.

Full specs

https://www.qsc.com/systems/products/loudspeakers/powered-installed-loudspeakers/k-series/k8/


The K12 isn't much better.

Now the K12.2 speaker has much better specs

Frequency Response (-6 dB) 50 Hz - 20 kHz

Full specs

https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/loudspeakers/powered-loudspeakers/k2-series-new/k122/

Using the 40Hz HPF would make it sound even worse.

I can hear down to 20Hz fairly decently.

It's just that the subs cannot reproduce that low and it's been my experience that a driver which is fed frequencies below what it can reproduce will still move the cone although no sound will be heard.

I'm thinking two G subs per corner built to the specs listed in the post I linked to will at least get me better bass than what I have now.

That said I don't really think there's room for 8 separate locations for dual G subs due to the layout so the corners are all i have to work with.

One other thing about the JBL 4530 speakers. I didn't really notice the lacking bass response because to my ears they sounded good over the rest of the frequency range they were set to reproduce.

That said perhaps the G subs will have the bass sounding so good that what they don't reproduce won't be noticed.

What do y'all think about this for the subs
https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/loudspeakers/passive-subwoofers/gp-series/gp218-sw/

Two per corner minimum.

Driven by four of these amps
https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/power-amplifiers/rmxa-series/rmx-5050a/

I can either run one sub on each channel or series connect two subs and run the amp bridged mono which will save on the amount of necessary wiring.

Also if the K12.2 speakers are good enough how many do I need and where should they be placed?

Edited by Tube Radio - 26 June 2017 at 11:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Risc_Terilia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 11:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 1:19pm
Thanks will have a look at it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bitSmasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2017 at 10:47pm
A lot of the requirements are based on your own expectations - flat to 30, claiming you can hear to 20hz.
You're a DJ in a big venue where music isn't the primary focus.
Perhaps realign your goal, considering what patrons want/need...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2017 at 1:13am
At a skating rink music is a big focus at least for jam skaters.

I've already determined that flat to 30Hz won't happen so I will get as close to that as I reasonably can.

Now I did see where QSC makes a cinema sub which has a -6db point of 25Hz, but I would have had to fabricate a grill for it.

I'm thinking the QSC subs I linked to should work as they look similar enough to a G sub only with slightly better specs and they wouldn't have to be built.

Originally posted by Risc_Terilia Risc_Terilia wrote:

Rog's paper might be useful readingĀ http://www.voidaudio.pl/attachments/article/147/A%20Practical%20Guide%20To%20Bass%20Arrays%20%28angielski%29.pdf


That was a very informative read, thanks.

Edited by Tube Radio - 27 June 2017 at 1:15am
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