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Skating rink sound system upgrade

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dylan-penguinmedia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 8:58am
You're getting advice on kit from people who deal with it 24/7 and ignoring it.
It's a big room, there's no cheap way.

Big room = more kit. Or expensive kit (think Danley).

A DSP with the ability to EQ, crossover and limit the tops and subs is a good start.
The 8's around the room are too small if you can only put meaningful bass in the corners.
Look at getting larger tops. Go passive with amplifiers. As many DSP channels as you can afford for the tops so your optimisation resolution is higher.
Your fixation with a low frequency is clouding everything. If a cinema sub or car sub is better, why do the pro audio boxes exist? Use the right kit for the job, it's not a cinema or a car.

What's the chances you (I mean someone certified) could fly the subs?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 9:19am
hey

You seem fairly set on your goals and your opinions, which is unfortunate because there is a wealth of advice here from people with lots of experience in this kind of thing (such as Dylan, who runs a very succesful company installing sound systems into exactly the kind of big cavernous place you're looking at) that you're ignoring. 

You will simply not get 30Hz in any reasonable way that sounds good in such a big, reverberate space without spending way over budget on both the equipment and on acoustics. Even if you do get enough big powerful subs to do this they'll be so loud as to be uncomfortable at their side of the venue to carry properly over to the other side, and they'll sound muddy and undefined because they'll only be time aligned to the tops in a very small area of the arena. The kind of sound system you would need to do this properly and make it sound good will be way out of budget, and and in any case, your owner will hate you because after spending all that money he'll be forced to turn them down anyway because of all the noise complaints from the other places round about. 

If I were you, I would go with a distributed system of small 12" subwoofers (15 at a push if you can find one that will go low in a compact box), hung from the walls/roof at all the same places as the tops. Yes it won't hit 30Hz, but honestly no one in the public will want that or care. 

What they'll notice and care about far more is even, punchy base that is time aligned to whatever top that it is hung next to, so that no matter where you are you hear a nice coherent punchy sound with plenty of kick and definition. The 12" will play a little higher than an 18" sub or whatever and so will fill in some of the missing upper bass and lower mid that the 8" drivers of the K8's can't produce well, and a little time with a decent crossover will get these working together nicely. No spot will need to be stupidly loud for the sound to carry through the venue. And you can even leave the current subs set up and turned down a bit, and run off the processor you get for the 12" subs to give you more control over EQ and alignment etc. For the people that are there primarily for the music, they can get a bit more depth to the sub next to the original subs, but people in the rest of the room can just hear high quality hi-fi music, but also still have a conversation with their friends and enjoy themselves, which is what they'll be primarily there to do. 

Build a load of compact boxes using a good 12" sub driver, and get some good advice on how to make them suitable for flying, and honestly everyone involved will be much happier. 


k


Edited by kevinmcdonough - 28 June 2017 at 9:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THECANDLEMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 10:31am
audio group did a big roller rink project up in scotland using void kit
theirs a few links on their facebook page

think it was cumbernauld , scotland called "the roller disco"
Motion Systems - Void Airmotion, Airten & Stasys 218 With Powersoft DSP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by matty w matty w wrote:

First thing I notice looking at yours pics is how bloody big the room is , your not gonna get much sub 50hz from four front loaded 18"horns in a room that size , not gonna happen !
 
The more I think about it the more I realize this is my problem and does jive with what I actually hear.
 
So I need to look at all options expensive or not of getting at least -3db to 40Hz with the pros and cons of all the options.
 
That way I can make an informed decision of what to present to the management of the rink based on what I think they are willing to spend the money for and fit in the space they have.
 
Bear with me. I can be quite stubborn and really do need to have it explained in detail why an idea I have simply will not work like I think it will.


Edited by Tube Radio - 28 June 2017 at 4:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Teunos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 4:32pm
Why sont you send them a link to this thread?
There is already three pages of info and suggestions you dont't really seem to be interested in hearing.

Im with the rest on this one. Intelligibility in a place like that is way more important than getting a level of sub that is unrealistic in your expectations to begin with.
Most songs really dont contain any real info below 40hz and aiming for 30 is a bit pointless. I would be surprised if your current subs even reach below 50 with authority, they simply are not that big.
Dispersing the subs throughout the venue will probably only make the problem worse, because of two reasons; the coupling of the horns which increases efficiency and lowers the lowest frequency your subs can reach will be lost. Also, placement of the subs with regards to both room modes and destructive interference will become much more important since you are now exciting modes in multiple positions.
If you want more and lower bass, my forst suggestion would be to increase the nunber of subs you have with the same model already installed. Hire some before purchasing and see what the differences are.
Best regards,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 5:07pm
It's not that I am not interested in hearing the ideas. It's just that I need it explained in a way someone who doesn't design sound systems can easily understand.
 
Same goes for ideas that won't work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 5:35pm
Get a sine wave generator and sweep it in the room. You'll soon hear that the bass notes you want are in the >50hz range, not below.
You're after energy by the sound of it, and that from the punchier bit of the spectrum, not the rumbly bit.
And as lots of people have said previously, you've got a big hole in that bit currently, so try filling in the hole before looking at adding frequencies elsewhere that are missing, but may not actually be doing anything.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 6:03pm
Yes I need to first solve the current issue of what was mentioned about the reason of not having much bass under 55 Hz due to the current subs and how they are installed.
 
Perhaps when the LF switches on the wall speakers are set to NORM I can run the crossover frequency between the tops and subs down to 60Hz then maybe increase the level going to the subs slightly to balance them out which might make them sound better until they redo the system and the correct subs get installed.
 
I think the issue is compounded by having greater output above 55Hz and with the crossover at 100Hz having to set the sub levels to where they match the tops in output and with the falling bass response at 55Hz the deeper bass would be reduced.
 
Now with perhaps a 60Hz crossover the subs can be turned up some and the falling bass response below 55Hz might not be as much of a problem given the output is most likely already lower at 60Hz than it would be at 100Hz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Risc_Terilia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 7:02pm
Maybe you could consider distributed x1s, they go low and are loud in singles. They dont respond much above 80 but that's cool with your qscs innit

Edited by Risc_Terilia - 28 June 2017 at 7:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Risc_Terilia Risc_Terilia wrote:

Maybe you could consider distributed x1s, they go low and are loud in singles. They dont respond much above 80 but that's cool with your qscs innit
 
I had looked at those before, but didn't think much about them before I gleaned some knowledge from this topic.
 
How many would I possibly need?
 
Judging by the size I would be limited to the corners I think, but could install maybe four per corner.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Risc_Terilia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 7:28pm
Going off intuition alone I'd have thought 16 x1s in a 30m x30m area would be pretty loud but perhaps you could look into the output levels indicated on the plans for the x1 and apply the inverse square law to get a theoretical idea of what you might get? I think (theoretically again) each cab in a stack should give you 3db more output.

Edited by Risc_Terilia - 28 June 2017 at 7:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2017 at 8:08pm
Ok simple.... you have 14 mods that seem to play a fair kick drum at a level you like Yes? Around the 100hz range or there abouts. To play at 50hz an octave below at the same SPL you need APPROX 4x as much power.... so to hit 25hz an octave below that you need 4x the power again.

So... you need ABOUT 16x as much power to play your 30hz sub as you need to play a nice kick drum at 100hz (ish)

So... if you have 14x 8inch driver doing a fair job at 100hz you would need 224 8in drivers to play your 30hz sub with ABOUT the same level of SPL with the same power to each and every 8inch driver...

So let's say 5x 8ich driver would be the same as roughly 1x 18inch driver... you would need 40+ 18inch driver to play at the same SPL as your 8inch does at 100hz.

These are extremely rough numbers... but can you see what we are all telling You?

I would aim for giving your system a power band between 50-120 ish and letting natural roll off do it's thing below that.

Side effects. When you play with 30hz at an SPL at the same level as you want you punch bass you will be inundated with noise complaints that will have you shut don't before you can build an audience of punters that like to skate and feel sick at the same time as the borderline infrasub your trying to play to them.


Your boss likes money... he likes to keep money or make it. Not spend it. If you buy a pile of sub drivers big enough to do what you want and get him shit down in the same week I'm pretty sure he won't be impressed.

If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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