Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Advanced Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Group Delay/phase responce
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Group Delay/phase responce

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 27 June 2005
Location: Glasgow
Status: Offline
Points: 3751
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Group Delay/phase responce
    Posted: 22 July 2006 at 5:58am
Hey all

I kind of have a vague idea of what group delay and phase responce is, but wanna learn the detail about it.

In terms of cabinate design, what exactly causes it?

What design features can you implement to improve it and what makes it worse.

Any info or links appreciated.

kev
Back to Top
kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 27 June 2005
Location: Glasgow
Status: Offline
Points: 3751
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 6:05pm

LOL  anyone?
Back to Top
soundsystemdan View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 04 April 2005
Location: Leeds UK
Status: Offline
Points: 716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soundsystemdan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2006 at 6:24pm
well what type of cabinet ae you refering to?
afaik these things affect reflex and bandpasss designs.

I probably know little more than you about what causes it, i dont think phase response is much of an issue, except at crossover frequencies or if you're combining non identical cabinets.

As far as  making group delay better or worse, it would depend what you want out of your cab, be it depth, kick or efficiency, or maybe size is important too. volume and tuning frequencies can affect power handling too. I expect you know some of this all ready.
 
I'm in the process of trial-and-error mdf prototyping different reflex designs. Hopefully by the end of the week I'll be able  to post some findings.
Back to Top
djtosco View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 26 September 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djtosco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2006 at 1:22pm
Any linear system could be represented by a transfer function, which contains all the informations about its behaviour. Even a loudspeaker+enclosure, under a certain degree of approximation, is a linear system with a transfer function (TF). A linear system with a sine wave at the input, gives you a sine wave at the output with the same frequency, but eventually different amplitude and phase. The frequency response is the plot which represents the ratio between the amplitude of the output ant the input (usually in dB) at the different frequencies. The phase response plot represents the difference in phase between the input and the output at the different freqeuncies. A phase difference is a time difference, and thus the group delay. A non-linear phase response cause the fact that the system produces a frequency-dependent delay. Any waveform (Fourier's  theory) could be represented by a sum of sine waves. But because of the group delay, the waves at the different frequency are differently delayed. This cause a different shape in the input and output waveforms. So, we want an almost constant group delay (the value is not so important, and could be easily compensated with a DSP), thus an almost linear phase response (the group delay is the opposite of the derivative of the phase respect to the frequency in rad/s)
Back to Top
kevinmcdonough View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 27 June 2005
Location: Glasgow
Status: Offline
Points: 3751
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2006 at 5:37pm
LOL


thanks for your replys guys.

I already know most of the info, i understand WHAT phase is, what fourier transforms are and the graphs etc.

I suppose my question wasn't phrased very well but i kind of ment more WHY

Why does a speaker play different frequencies at different delays/phases. and what building meathods are to be avoided or used in order to minimise this effect.


I'm refering to mostly to reflex as thats what i'm working on at the moment but just all designs in general really.

kev
Back to Top
godathunder View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 19 July 2004
Location: wicklow
Status: Offline
Points: 1834
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote godathunder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2006 at 6:51am
Im not sure that Im remotely correct here but my understanding is that the cabinet produces differing resistance to cone movement at differing frequencies. This resistance to cone movement alters the reactive component and hence impedence of the coil. since the phase angle is the ratio of the coil resistance (constant) to impedence if the impedence changes then the phase changes. Corrections anyone?
LOUDER THAN LOUD
Back to Top
tb_mike View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 01 October 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 2744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tb_mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2006 at 8:38pm
Back to Top
unknown_artist View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 June 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unknown_artist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2006 at 1:16pm
Hm,
the best case is that you design your system as a minimum phase system(it's not possible to have "faster" system without the use of FIR filters[which quit have delay to work  even at low frequencys]).
It's a disputed question whether you can hear group delay.
Definitely you can hear it at low frequencies and you can hear it when theres a jump in the group Delay at your crossover (for example at 1500Hz)-> then  transients will be torned up(don't know if it's the right word)- for example a snare or somthing like this...
So you have to try to get a flat group delay(group delay means the derivative of phase -> a spectrally delay)

Back to Top
tb_mike View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 01 October 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 2744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tb_mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2006 at 9:51pm
I find it easy to visualise with step response/impulse response measurements. The acoustic response is easily understood here.
 
Although this may be a simplification...I havent bothered with FIR study yet.
 
Once people realise what it is,then you have to see if your ear can even hear what looks bad on a graph. It certainly is sensitive to certain things in certain frequency ranges but not others.


Edited by tb_mike - 16 August 2006 at 9:52pm
Back to Top
unknown_artist View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 June 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unknown_artist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2006 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by tb_mike tb_mike wrote:

Once people realise what it is,then you have to see if your ear can even hear what looks bad on a graph. It certainly is sensitive to certain things in certain frequency ranges but not others.

If you're able to understand the german language, there are great publications available(including  the  question:what kind of improvements are "hear"able....)
Back to Top
Paulo Duto View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 06 January 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulo Duto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2006 at 6:17pm

See also John L Murphy's collection of posts to Bass list mentioning  Journal of the Acoustic Society of America Vol 63, nr 5, pp 1478-1483 (May 1978) Blauert and Laws...

 
and
 
 
Regards,
Paulo. 


Edited by Paulo Duto - 17 August 2006 at 6:27pm
Paulo Duto
Back to Top
tb_mike View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 01 October 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 2744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tb_mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 August 2006 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by unknown_artist unknown_artist wrote:

Originally posted by tb_mike tb_mike wrote:

Once people realise what it is,then you have to see if your ear can even hear what looks bad on a graph. It certainly is sensitive to certain things in certain frequency ranges but not others.

If you're able to understand the german language, there are great publications available(including  the  question:what kind of improvements are "hear"able....)
 
Sorry,my german only consists of 2yrs at secondary school,not quite enough I think!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.