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Help me with first mobile rig

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Jo bg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 March 2017 at 2:37pm
Hi
I ve been lurking round here for a while so first of All thanks for All the knowledge and inspiration i found on these boards.
We run a soundsystem in Italy composed of xoc1 th18, cubo kick 15 and mt 121 plus ohm trs112 mk1 passive wedges.
We'd like to put toegether a portable rig mainly for reggae, so some bass is important.
For tops i am thinking about using 1 or two trs112. Not as efficient as mt121 (which could bè used if ultimate edficency is required but Need processing) but still not bad at 101 db /1m but needs only One Channel as it has a passive crossover and has protection for the cd, wider dispersion and is smaller than an mt , goes lower and should bè reasonably flat without eq.

For bass we would like to use the th18 to get the bass - hi pass at 50/60 hz. Our th are b&c 18sw115 4ohm loaded. I considered also strapping toegether two kicks in parallel for a 4 ohm load and higher sensitivity but don't know if they go lower than 80 - never tried that. The th has a bump in sensitivity After 80hz that i usually cut but would bè nice this time.

I have my eyes on two used class d alpine amps
Mrp 240 at 30 euros . Rated at 4x40 rms @ 4 ohm or 2x100 w rms bridged @ 4 ohm
Selectable hi pass filter at 80 hz. This would give in bridged mode 2x80rms for the tops... Even if it becomes 40 in real world would still make some noise

For the bass i have seen alpine mrd m501 mono class d amp used at 130 euro ( this was in a higher class than the former amp). This has selectable hi pass from 15 to 50hz plus parametric eq, i could use a -6 at 60 to rise the hi pass, and selectable low pass. Specs say 275 rms at 4 ohm and 550 at 2, 2 ohm stable and featurs some spekaer protection circuit.
I know this rms Watts should still be inflated but i know that with 100 watts the th18 does allready a lot of noise...
I could even run two th in parallel for a two ohm load.

So what do you think? Any feedback on the amps?

I saw many amps with two way crossover but not so many with hi pass and lo pass for the sub, i think this soulution could avoid me other processore for hi pass. I could live without time aligning this i think

Both amps have got variabile input gain (sensitivity?) I think from 0.2 to 4 volt.
Do you think that i could connect a phone or mp3 player directly to them without a preamp?
I would like to keep it simple and with few components. The mrd amp gives even a live voltage Reading that should bè nice to keep batteries in check.

So batteries... I am ignorant, i read that car batyeies are fast diacharge and no good but Electric bike ones should bè good. I could get gold of One for about 100 euros. What rAtings should it have for that price? Any other suggestion?

What about using Two amps instead of One?
Would it bè better run everything from One amp?
Thanks!
Jo

Edited by Jo bg - 08 March 2017 at 2:43pm
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I-shen Soundboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I-shen Soundboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2017 at 3:21pm
Hi, lots of questions; I can help with a few things.

Battery: Car batteries not so good, never run below 50%.
Leisure (deep cycle) batteries look the same, but are much better for running amplifiers and can give all their charge without dying.
Electric bicycle/laptop/lithium-ion batteries are best of all, but can be very expensive and are more complicated to get 12v. Good amps can handle a 16.8v (4x 3.7v) lithium-ion supply.

Amplifiers: Alpine make good amplifiers, but they do make several ranges of decreasing quality. The top tier PDX class D SMPS range are as good a class D amplifier as you'll find anywhere, but cost accordingly. They use less power due to their efficient design and SMPS, so you can last longer, go louder or use fewer batteries; in the context of system design, it can be cheaper to buy a more expensive amplifier... Also, the inbuilt crossovers are acceptable, usually a sweepable low/highpass between 50-400hz and a low cut switch (35 or 40hz?).

Always look to use separate amplifiers for different speakers. If you're lucky, you can build a 2 or 3 way system just using internal crossovers. Eventually you might move to an external crossover (Kenwood made some wicked ones that still command much respect and money).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ganon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2017 at 7:34am
There are many people using the Pioneer GM-D8604 because it's cheap and perform well.
And some use Bassface db 1.2 for bass, as it gives loads of power, is cheap and has both hpf and lpf :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2017 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Ganon Ganon wrote:

There are many people using the Pioneer GM-D8604 because it's cheap and perform well.
And some use Bassface db 1.2 for bass, as it gives loads of power, is cheap and has both hpf and lpf :)


^ This.

Use the Pioneer as 2 x bridged channels, each with an 8R wedge as midtops. Enable the HPF at 110Hz.

Use the bassface with 2 x cubos for bass = 4R load. Enable the 50Hz "subsonic" filter, and set the LPF at highest freq = 108Hz.

Forget separate sub and kick.

Unless you have big bucks to spend, just get 2 x deep-cycle lead-acid batteries 100Ah or so each.

You are then at about the sensible limit for using battery power .... if you want higher power/more complex system than this - use a generator instead.

REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Jo bg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2017 at 12:19pm
Hi
thanks everybody, I have been studying a bit...

Amps: I can find the pioneer for about 180 Euro and the bass face 2.1 for 70 but it strikes me as odd to put ab power on bass- that needs more watts- and put most of the money on the high class d amp, that would need less power and just a simple hi pass.
Wouldn't it be more efficient to put more money on a class d monoblock and use a bridged 4 channel ab amp on mid top-if funds will not allow two class d amps?
I always run my subs a lot hotter than mid tops with reggae (not just to balance different sensitivities, just 10db more bass)

I didn't mean to use subs and kicks, I was wondering wether using one of my 4ohm th18 or two 8ohm cubokicks paralleled to 4 ohm. The second option should be around 8db more sensitive but with higher cut off, so good for max spl/watt. Size and weight about the same.

I have found 10 new fiam SLA 7ah 12v for 70 euros, dating max 6 months. Should give 55ah, and be scalable.... what do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ganon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 6:58am
You looked at the wrong bass face, it's the 1.2 and not the 2.1.
1.2 is digital :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2017 at 11:05am
Yup bassface 1.2 is the one.

If you want to exaggerate bass like above - well the bassface amp will likely be OK, but then get a substantially bigger battery for the bass section - like 200Ah or 2 x 100Ah ..... well the sizes really depend on long you wanna play.

Avoid using lots of small batteries - it'll just cause hassles.

Re bass cabs - well if your 18 is 4R, just try each permutation and use what you prefer - won't affect amp/battery choice.

REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mobiele eenheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2017 at 3:24pm
Cubo Kick 15 has 3 dividers/ bracing in the port at equal distance, this creates 4 ports of equal size. All ports open tunes the reflex section to about 80 Hz, if you start closing the individual ports, tuning goes 10 Hz down for every closed port. So you can tune the reflex section to 80 Hz, 70 Hz, 60 Hz and 50 Hz respectively. Around 50 - 60 Hz should be usable for a 12 V system.

Johan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2017 at 3:29pm
Hi
So much for studying
So db 1.2 + Pioneer gmd would cost some 370 euros plus batteries. A Little too Rich for my Blood...
I was thinking about a bridgeble 4 Channel Digital with band pass filter to keep cost down.2 Channel on bass 2 on midtops.
I saw bass face blackdb4.1 for 200 euros 4 x150 @ 4 ohm , 4*225 @ 2 ohm declared rms. Any opinion? How much Can i trust bass face rms Watt rAtings?
For 230 i saw a ground zero class d 4 Channel 4*70/4*130...
Comments? Experiencies? Thanks!
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Jo bg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2017 at 5:08pm
mobiele eenheid
thanks, i knew i could reduce the reflex duct size, but i remeber mr cubo saying this would reduce output below 100hz... can't create energy from nothing! will have to see how much spl loss that means.
Anyway very useful to know this 10hz/port rule. did you try it? noticed the difference in efficency?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlynch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2017 at 5:15pm
mobiele eenheid is Mr Cubo Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2017 at 6:07pm
hahaha sorry man, and big thanks for your projects and your helpfulness.
we usually run reggae with our rig but for carnival we had some tekno djs and they where amazed from the system, so another proof that the cubo kick kicks as it should.
By the way i was ready to fight clipping all night but the tekno guys actually showed up with a dbx compressor/peak limiter intended to protect the system  ; i've got my protective limiting and had ample headroom for the night so we didn't use it and kept all the dynamics intact without problems, but i did appreciate the effort and furthermore the djs kept the levels on the desks in check all night; i was providing generous levels though.
 
did you ever put an efficency number on cubo kick 15, 18 sound loaded as per project?
in my calculations i use 102db/w but i'm almost sure it's higher (better to be conservative and surprised later;  i could be wrong but i feel it is less sensitive than mt121 12" with 18sound mb700 that in turn is less sensitive than the comp above that should hit 111 db 1w 1m with same horn i'm using)
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