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Help needed for upper bass and mid

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samsonrocker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 April 2017 at 11:22am
TO give some background:

I'm running - 
2 mini scoops with fane 18xbs up to 60z
a vented double 15 cab with sovereign pro 400w lf from 60 - 1k2 
then a fane comp from 1k2 to 7k with tweeters above it 

What I want to do now is build a dedicated mid cab as I want the 15 cab to just cover the upper bass. I'll bring the c/o point for the 15s down to 600 and use either a double 10 or 12" to cover from 600 - 2k, and change the comp c/o point to match

What do people think about this arrangement? I was thinking I'd upgrade my 15s to 600w drivers as I don't think I'm getting much kick out of the 400w but could I achieve this with a more powerful amp? (currently using a DARE V1400) 

If anyone is willing to share any designs for a double 10/12" cab id appreciate it too

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bass*en*mass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 8:39am
build the boxes to suit your needs? Physically at least..
Even the most simple simulation programs online will give quite accurate results simulating closed/vented boxes..
scoops 40-80
kick 80-120ish
mids 120ish-1600ish
tops 1.6k up depending on comp driver and horn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2017 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by samsonrocker samsonrocker wrote:

What do people think about this arrangement? I was thinking I'd upgrade my 15s to 600w drivers as I don't think I'm getting much kick out of the 400w but could I achieve this with a more powerful amp? (currently using a DARE V1400) 

1) power dissipation is meaningless. sensitivity is the spec you want to look at to get a clue as to which of two drivers might be louder for same input. 

2) from 400 to 600 W is a 1,7 dB increase. Not meaningful. Also consider power compression

3) I would guess you haven't properly spanked your kicks yet - your amp is probably to blame. It didn't get very good reviews:

Originally posted by djforum.co.uk djforum.co.uk wrote:

2nd Test - Carried out using a borrowed EV Eliminator system

Again the output is crystal clear even at the back of a fairly large pub the vocals are well defined and the High Frequency is clear and sparkling, and this remains until around 75% of the amplifiers rated output. However push the amp towards its full rated output and the bass seems to lose grunt very quickly and the earlier tightness at low - medium levels vanishes. The clip lights seem to illuminate very quickly with small increases in bass on the mixer EQ control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 12:24am
Instead of upgrading those 15 put them in horn kick bin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 11:23am
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Instead of upgrading those 15 put them in horn kick bin.


Misconception.

Most important section of Roots Reggae Soundsystem, is the low mid, and in terms of vocal reproduction, 15" reflex is the best cab for this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 1:31pm
II'd chime in at this stage and say that it's also alot to do with the c/o slope as well as point. For good vocal clarity and decent un-muddied high bass, you need separation and steep slopes do this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samsonrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 8:06pm
In terms of the amp, I agree I need to get a new one just waiting until I can afford it.

vocal reproduction out of the 15s is good it's just it doesn't perform well from 100-200hz

I'm not too well educated on c/o slopes, orders, phase shifts and alignment so I'll probably need to spend some time making sense of it. From a quick search I think I've kind of got a slight idea of it; a post from someone on the forum said "Active crossovers more commonly have a 24dB/octave slope, so the power would be 24dB-or roughly 16 times lower at an octave away from the x-point". 
Where my c/o point is 60hz does this mean at 120hz the power is 16 times lower?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 9:23pm
The vocal reproduction from the 15's will be lacking, but there IS some in there. I think where Lev was pointing is that you have the best lower vocal reproduction with your reflex, but yes adding something above to complete the picture. Going to horns for (kick) after you add your new mids could be seen as a retrograde step as you will lose the warm lower vocal.
If I got Lev's drift right I personally couldn't agree more, nasal or boxy lower vocals through horns bothers me?

Could be off kilter here though, as you never said you would change the reflex 15's LOL


Edited by nickyburnell - 01 May 2017 at 9:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinai Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 4:02pm
Have you tried experimenting playing the double 15" on a narrower band?

Try playing the mini scoops up to about 70hz, then try the double 15" from 70hz to say 170hz

That way you can hear the cab playing the theoretical bandwidth if you were to add say a double 12" box

Give it a little boost at 91hz as well

The first amp I used with my old 15" cabs was a Matrix STR3000, which I was never happy with

Tried it with a void infinite 8v2...... whole world of difference!

What amp do you use on sub?

Do you use 1 channel for sub, then the other for the double 15"? 
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samsonrocker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samsonrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 6:21pm
I've got a pair of hd15s which I've been meaning to try but I agree I don't want to lose the lower vocals. 

I have but I'm using a Behringer CX3400 so I don't think I can drop the low mid to below 440hz. Sage pre amp is being built though so I'll be able to properly test it then. 

Subs are Behringer EP4000 which does a very nice job, bridged and one scoop per channel, double 15 is a dare v1400 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SouthwestCNC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

The vocal reproduction from the 15's will be lacking, but there IS some in there. I think where Lev was pointing is that you have the best lower vocal reproduction with your reflex, but yes adding something above to complete the picture. Going to horns for (kick) after you add your new mids could be seen as a retrograde step as you will lose the warm lower vocal.
If I got Lev's drift right I personally couldn't agree more, nasal or boxy lower vocals through horns bothers me?

Could be off kilter here though, as you never said you would change the reflex 15's LOL



You say horn vocals sound nasal Nicky, are you talking about bph or flh or both?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 10:55pm
BPH or folded. Not forward facing MT type stuff. Lower vocals (like reggae has) out of HD15/USB yuk. Techno kick, yes

Still think 15 version of below with fast 3" coil driver double stacked on top of scoops is an option from 90 to comps.

Cue lots of slaps on my wrist about beaming etc :)


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