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haymere View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 April 2016 at 4:21pm
Hi all

I am starting my first experiment in loading boxes. I bought some twelve inch wedge carcasses off ebay and was going to bid on some ATC PA50 314 bass drivers so 200w @100db pwpm so am starting to look at HFs and horns but do not know what ratio to use. I used to own a eminence design book which had a table anyone remember that. Anywhoo it needs to be a one inch crossing over about 1.6k costing about sixty quid driver and horn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 2:42am
Power handling wise a 10:1 ratio between lows and highs for a 2-way with 2khz crossover or higher should work fine, but buy at least a 40w(rms) compression driver anyway for durability and future upgrade potential.


Edited by Conanski - 20 April 2016 at 2:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 3:28pm
I would keep everything in the decibel/SPL domain. Easier to consider.

Mosts specs of most drivers will give SPL @ 1W/1m figures, and by doubling power (1W, 2W, 4W, 8W, etc) you will get 3dB more for each doubling of power. They will either give max SPL (ignoring power compression), or you can calculate something similar.

A lot of HF drivers will be measured with some form of horn attached, usually stated in the spec. If your choice of horn differs from the one it is measured with, its the total dispersion that will affect SPL figures. If the measured horn is a 60x40, and yours is 60x40, very little difference in SPL. If measured is 40x40, and you want to use a 90x60, perhaps allow 3dB less SPL from your horn/HF combo, as the same power from diaphragm is being spread over a bigger surface of a sphere, a greater area of mouth, than measured. SPL, is, simply, power divided by area, same power over double an area, will be -3dB.

Picture is 1000 words - this site explains a lot of the fundamentals of sound physics. Should be OK to follow, just keep looking at it, until you get it!!

Working from that, you should be able to work out how loud each driver will contribute to the total system SPL. You will want every frequency band, to give a similar SPL. If it doesn't, you can pad down too loud bands on your LMS, or, if you have enough headroom before amp clip or driver physical damage, add gain at the LMS.

One extra thing, is for every doubling in number of drivers, you get a 3dB gain in output. So a single 12" may give 95dB 1W/1m for a particular box/passband. 2 x 12" would give you 98 dB 1W/1m, 4 x 12" would give you 101 dB 1W/1m, etc.

Equally, one of those 12" may give 95db 1W/1m, so 98dB 2W/1m, 101 dB 4W/1m, 104 dB 8W/1m, etc.

Equally, inverse square law is 6dB loss per doubling of distance, so the same 12" may give 95db at 1W/1m, 89dB at 1W/2m, 83dB at 1W/4m, 77dB at 1W/8m, etc. Roughly 20dB down for 10x distance.

All this is strictly reflex, a horn cab may add 3-6db to the efficiency of the driver, depending on design, but measured, or Horn Response, may give a good estimate of 1W/1m numbers for system design help. However, apart from a change to the initial 1W/1m figures, all other rules will generally apply.

Horn coupling effects tend to increase horn mouth related shizzle, so no great gain above the normal 3dB for doubling the number of drivers/horns, in terms of SPL, but gains in passband flatness, and low cut off frequency.

If you want it sound "heavy on sub", simply allow a required 3 or 6dB louder pass band, for required SPL.

So something like 133dB HF, 130dB Mid, 136dB Kick, 142dB sub design goals for EDM? +3dB is electrically double (1W, 2W, 4W, 8W, etc) but +6dB is perceived by the human brain as being audibly double. Most trained ears can perceive a change of around 1 to 1.5dB as a change in volume. Very good ears can hear a 1-1.5dB change in a graphic fader, but jury is out on whether that is straightforward perception of the change of SPL at a frequency, or whether you are hearing the group delay change as the fader is moved at whatever frequency on the GEQ.

The only other thing to consider, is you may not need the same SPL from 20Hz to 20KHz. Look-up Fletcher -Munson curves for how the ear perceives 2-4K far more easily than 20Hz or 20KHz. You then use a thing called the phon, which is dB SPL, corrected for brains perception of a frequency.

Further spanner, is that the F-M curves and phon are different depending on absolute SPL, the louder the noise, the less 2.5K you need!

I will let you have a cup of tea after that lot......
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 3:37pm
Also, the gain from having double the number of drivers in a pass band, +3dB, doesn't take into account effect on amplifier.

By having a second driver on an amplifier channel, a perfect amplifier will supply twice as many watts, in going from nominal 8ohm to 4ohm. This doubling of power is another 3dB gain.

However, amps are not perfect, so going from 8 ohm to 4 ohm tends to only yield less than 2db, which is only barely audible to most ears. Equally, unless your amp is big, you may run out of watts supplied, so moot point perhaps.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJ-Versatile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 10:08pm
Matt, that is possibly one of the most useful bits of info I've read on this site for those looking to build a system! I for one am going to use this for my own learning purposes! Brilliant read :)
If you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy Kos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by haymere haymere wrote:

Hi all

I am starting my first experiment in loading boxes. I bought some twelve inch wedge carcasses off ebay and was going to bid on some ATC PA50 314 bass drivers so 200w @100db pwpm so am starting to look at HFs and horns but do not know what ratio to use. I used to own a eminence design book which had a table anyone remember that. Anywhoo it needs to be a one inch crossing over about 1.6k costing about sixty quid driver and horn

IMO - most (not all) 1" comp drivers crossing over at 1.6kHz sound dreadful and make me want to cut my own ears off with a chainsaw.

Do you own an active crossover? If so, this is a great way to experiment with the sound, I'm sure you will probably want to tame the compression driver honk by crossing over a little higher. I typically find 2.2k, 2.5k and 3k work well with many 1" comp drivers.

1.6K seems to be the figure everyone quotes as being the best crossover point between 12" and 1" - personally I find it the honkiest and most offensive to my ears.

just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2016 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by DJ-Versatile DJ-Versatile wrote:

Matt, that is possibly one of the most useful bits of info I've read on this site for those looking to build a system! I for one am going to use this for my own learning purposes! Brilliant read :)
The art lies in the nuances of how to get drivers in different passbands to work with the units in the above and below passbands.

I'm not very artistic, so have to try and keep things on a theoretical physics domain. Wink

That is a fairly basic primer on the basics of decibels, but its a highly useful set of concepts to get you to a basic design, which then gets you a good starting point to evolve from. Train, then trust, your ears.

Real elegant design will match details like horizontal dispersion at X-over points, so the -6dB points are at roughly similar angles, so off axis response is just a quieter version of on axis. Equally phase/group delay at X-0ver, through SMAART or equivalent measurement, aids inter passband integration for pleaseing and constructive progression from one driver to the next.

The basics are well within the grasp of most, the real hardcore details sets the few above the rest. Just a bit of physics.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarlet_man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2016 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by DJ-Versatile DJ-Versatile wrote:

Matt, that is possibly one of the most useful bits of info I've read on this site for those looking to build a system! I for one am going to use this for my own learning purposes! Brilliant read :)


Seconded.  Concise and clear.  That post alone should be a sticky.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2016 at 11:19pm
One of the reasons a 1.6Khz crossover for a 1" sounds dreadful, is that crossover calculators do not work well for horns.

Try something on the order of 5µF + 0.56mH feeding your pad and see how it behaves (you may be surprised).

(calculators generally tell you 8.8µF +1.126 mH)


Edited by _djk_ - 21 April 2016 at 11:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andy Kos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2016 at 12:59am
I find a lot of comps 'unpleasant' even with an active crossover, many seem to have resonances lower down in their response which can be quite nasty. There are of course some better ones out there which are less of an issue.
- but yes, your typical crossover calculator is a little simplistic and ignores several factors, and often some trial and error is required in getting the final result correct.
 
 
just a guy with a warehouse and a few speakers... www.bluearan.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJ-Versatile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2016 at 11:27am
so without any measuring equipment, could one get and idea of the potential total spl from a cabinet by doing some calculations. For instance, a low mid driver with a sensitivity of 97db 1w-1m capable of handling 225w and a compression driver with sens of 113db 1w-1m handling 25w.

At full tilt the low mid would produce 123.5db @ 225w-1m and the HF 130db @ 25w-1m.

So using those what would the calculation be to combine the two and get one number for the cab in it's entirety? I appreciate that it might not be 100% accurate... 

If you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2016 at 11:39am
Originally posted by DJ-Versatile DJ-Versatile wrote:

so without any measuring equipment, could one get and idea of the potential total spl from a cabinet by doing some calculations. For instance, a low mid driver with a sensitivity of 97db 1w-1m capable of handling 225w and a compression driver with sens of 113db 1w-1m handling 25w.

At full tilt the low mid would produce 123.5db @ 225w-1m and the HF 130db @ 25w-1m.

So using those what would the calculation be to combine the two and get one number for the cab in it's entirety? I appreciate that it might not be 100% accurate... 

No, you would have a cab producing 123.5db in the mids and 130db HF! Think SPL Vs Frequency graph.

On your LMS, you would pad down the HF, by, say 7db, and have a cab achieve 123dB notionally flat from mid to 18Kish, subject to GEQ and personal taste.

A 2x12" and HF, would make 127db mids, ish, and require only a 3dB pad to HF. Or you have a bright sounding cab?

All that doesn't take into the effects of power compression, which will happen more to your 12" drivers than HF, to some extent.

But you can see from basic maths, some pretty rough settings for your LMS, or Passive X-over, as a starting point. You then tweak by ear or measurement, to true it up, but gives you a fair ball park to start with.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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