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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 2:11am
Yes, horn loading the 6 inches will increase the box size.

Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bass*en*mass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:27am
couple of faital 4" drivers in a vertical row are a simple/cheap approach to control vertical dispersion to some point (length of the array) - plenty manufacturers offer similar cabs nowadays..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 10:35am
http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/cx2201/



These volt 8inch coax are stunning, I have some and I think Markie on here has some, well worth a look.


Edited by concept-10 - 22 May 2017 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 10:50am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

couple of faital 4" drivers in a vertical row are a simple/cheap approach to control vertical dispersion to some point (length of the array) - plenty manufacturers offer similar cabs nowadays..



For conferences i find horizontal dispersion more critical then vertical when fighting feedback.
But yes, 4x4 inch box is plenty easy to make and it will work to some extent.
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RosietheBand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

couple of faital 4" drivers in a vertical row are a simple/cheap approach to control vertical dispersion to some point (length of the array) - plenty manufacturers offer similar cabs nowadays..



For conferences i find horizontal dispersion more critical then vertical when fighting feedback.
But yes, 4x4 inch box is plenty easy to make and it will work to some extent.

Something along the lines of the HK Elements? I've used it in conference situations before and it wasn't too bad! Definitely wouldn't run a band through it, but I had it 6 ft from a lectern mic and it filled a pretty big hall without issues. 

Would there be any advantage in going for something like the B&C 4NDF34 over the Faital?
With love and many thanks,

Rosie.

www.rosietheband.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RosietheBand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/cx2201/



These volt 8inch coax are stunning, I have some and I think Markie on here has some, well worth a look.

I was looking at these earlier. Would there be any advantage in using the CX with a BM220.1 doing the low-mid duties?
With love and many thanks,

Rosie.

www.rosietheband.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:12pm
B&C 4NDF34 dont go high enough.

That Volt driver is very good unit. I wonder whats the OEM price for it.
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:41pm
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/297701-brainstorm-diy-compact-high-fidelity-pa-2.html#post4962425

Originally posted by WAE (on diyaudio.com) WAE (on diyaudio.com) wrote:

If your looking for Hifidelity, but also DIY AND compact, WHY not look at the following. I've designed and build this type of PA, fit's in the boot of your car.

1 - VERY easy to build,
2 - Affordable, tops are 130 euro on material each (prices in the Netherlands that is)
3 - Very audible, superb vocals
4 - Almost "invisible", VERY small footprint.
5 - Super directivity vertical, wide spread horizontal
6 - Near HiFi

What it is?

Low end a bass reflex, (tapped horn or any other device with a good punch possible, BUT more complex design and build). 
Hi end is a Column with 4" driver, full range.
Eighter a Class D digital amp with build in DSP, or a stereo amp with separate DSP.

For a utility holding about 200 people, I would suggest (have installed various PA's of this type):

Low end: 2 x 15" bass reflex, tuned at around 30 - 35 Hz, PLACED STACKED IN A CORNER, driven MONO. Why in the corner, simple, gives you an extra 6 dB in this setup, that a lot LESS amp power required. Why stacked, NO phasing and cancelation issues. With a decent driver, your looking at 75 - 100 liters each.

High end: 2 columns with 4 x 4" full range drivers each. Various suppliers available, like Faital Pro. Columns are 4 liters each, placed on a pole. THE big advantage of a Column is LONG throw and wide dispersion. Because they "carry" sound much further, the complete room will be covered. NO spill against floor or ceiling. Tune them as 4 closed compartments to roll of around 180 Hz, which for a Faital Pro 4Fe32 would be 0,9 liters each. They are a real match for your "full range", from 180 Hz upwards. The Faital goes to 18KHz easily and feels happy with loads of power. I run 400 watts per Column, crossed at 180 Hz.
I would NEVER use a full range on a pole, like half the world does (god knows why), the low end is not supported properly and will drop in SPL very fast. Half way the room, there is hardly any low end left, resulting in the need to cranck up the volume, which ISN't the real cure. You will end up in distortion and blown drivers / crap sound. WAY to loud nearby, NO low end half way the room. 

Crown Class D XLS 2502, which holds a DSP AND band-pass functions. Cross-over at 180 Hz 24 dB. If you want stereo, use 1 XLS bridged band pass 30 - 180 Hz for the low end and 1 XLS 2502 stereo high pass 180 Hz upwards.

Maybe use a DBX DSP, like the drive rack PA2. You can adjust filters any way you like including tuning it to your room.

I use this setup as a PA, sold to various bands (rock a billy, Fusion, Jazz, Pop / Rock) with very satisfied musicians and happy customers of these bands. Good sound quality, LOUD, but not irritating loud, pleasant to listen for hours.

DIY?. This system is just very simple to build. 18 mm birch multi ply for low end, 12 mm birch for the tops. 

Added a few pictures, so you get an idea.

https://www.facebook.com/WAEinfo/?pnref=lhc
picture upload doesn't work for some reason, see Facebook link (in Dutch, sorry ;-) )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by RosietheBand RosietheBand wrote:

[QUOTE=concept-10]http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/cx2201/



These volt 8inch coax are stunning, I have some and I think Markie on here has some, well worth a look.

I was looking at these earlier. Would there be any advantage in using the CX with a BM220.1 doing the low-mid duties?
[/QUOT

I have mine running from 90hz and up, my tapped horns below, sound very nice 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RosietheBand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/297701-brainstorm-diy-compact-high-fidelity-pa-2.html#post4962425

Originally posted by WAE (on diyaudio.com) WAE (on diyaudio.com) wrote:

If your looking for Hifidelity, but also DIY AND compact, WHY not look at the following. I've designed and build this type of PA, fit's in the boot of your car.

1 - VERY easy to build,
2 - Affordable, tops are 130 euro on material each (prices in the Netherlands that is)
3 - Very audible, superb vocals
4 - Almost "invisible", VERY small footprint.
5 - Super directivity vertical, wide spread horizontal
6 - Near HiFi

What it is?

Low end a bass reflex, (tapped horn or any other device with a good punch possible, BUT more complex design and build). 
Hi end is a Column with 4" driver, full range.
Eighter a Class D digital amp with build in DSP, or a stereo amp with separate DSP.

For a utility holding about 200 people, I would suggest (have installed various PA's of this type):

Low end: 2 x 15" bass reflex, tuned at around 30 - 35 Hz, PLACED STACKED IN A CORNER, driven MONO. Why in the corner, simple, gives you an extra 6 dB in this setup, that a lot LESS amp power required. Why stacked, NO phasing and cancelation issues. With a decent driver, your looking at 75 - 100 liters each.

High end: 2 columns with 4 x 4" full range drivers each. Various suppliers available, like Faital Pro. Columns are 4 liters each, placed on a pole. THE big advantage of a Column is LONG throw and wide dispersion. Because they "carry" sound much further, the complete room will be covered. NO spill against floor or ceiling. Tune them as 4 closed compartments to roll of around 180 Hz, which for a Faital Pro 4Fe32 would be 0,9 liters each. They are a real match for your "full range", from 180 Hz upwards. The Faital goes to 18KHz easily and feels happy with loads of power. I run 400 watts per Column, crossed at 180 Hz.
I would NEVER use a full range on a pole, like half the world does (god knows why), the low end is not supported properly and will drop in SPL very fast. Half way the room, there is hardly any low end left, resulting in the need to cranck up the volume, which ISN't the real cure. You will end up in distortion and blown drivers / crap sound. WAY to loud nearby, NO low end half way the room. 

Crown Class D XLS 2502, which holds a DSP AND band-pass functions. Cross-over at 180 Hz 24 dB. If you want stereo, use 1 XLS bridged band pass 30 - 180 Hz for the low end and 1 XLS 2502 stereo high pass 180 Hz upwards.

Maybe use a DBX DSP, like the drive rack PA2. You can adjust filters any way you like including tuning it to your room.

I use this setup as a PA, sold to various bands (rock a billy, Fusion, Jazz, Pop / Rock) with very satisfied musicians and happy customers of these bands. Good sound quality, LOUD, but not irritating loud, pleasant to listen for hours.

DIY?. This system is just very simple to build. 18 mm birch multi ply for low end, 12 mm birch for the tops. 

Added a few pictures, so you get an idea.

https://www.facebook.com/WAEinfo/?pnref=lhc
picture upload doesn't work for some reason, see Facebook link (in Dutch, sorry ;-) )



Wow, this looks perfect for my needs - and so cheap! I might have to find some lower powered amps though, the Camcos are far too powerful for 4" drivers :-D

I've just ordered 8 drivers, if it sounds good I'll probably build two pairs.
With love and many thanks,

Rosie.

www.rosietheband.com
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 5:54pm
Two columns of 4x4 inch drivers is very optimistic for 200 people.
We have made custom boxes for the Merriott hotel with some other manufacturer 4 inch driver.
We made 16 boxes with 8 drivers each (note these are 1db louder, and double the power handling then the faital 4fe32) along with 8 15 inch bandpass subs for a 450 people ball room.
So two 4 driver columns might be ok for 200 people presentations or conference, but forget having a party with two of those.








Edited by MarjanM - 22 May 2017 at 5:57pm
Marjan Milosevic
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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APW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by RosietheBand RosietheBand wrote:

Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

.....
I keep banging on about my Tham 12 (see here)but seriously I haven't heard better bass come from such a tiny box. 
.....


Loving the look of these subs! Seems like a great tradeoff between size/performance. Have you tested them in the field? I wonder how they perform when you couple a few together.
.....


I’m with cookie-dj on this, I have 2 pairs of tham-12s loaded with Beyma 12lx60v2 drivers, and again for their size they make a very nice noise and lots of it. If you need lots of sub 45ish hz they won’t be for you, if you want lots of 45-50hz and up bass in a very small and fairly efficient box they are just the ticket.

Depending on the venue I use either 1 or 2 per side, Saturday before last I was using all 4 of them (2 per side) in a marquee powered by a PLX 3602, and they were making the windows and roof tiles rattle on the house 50mtrs away.  The son of the people whose party it was plays in a band, he laughed when I carried them in set them up but stood speechless when I sound checked with them, and then asked “WTF are those little bins”. On previous years I have used 4 200ltr 18” BR cabs (similar to, but not the Fane design) to do the same event, the Thams did the gig with ease.

They don’t drop as low as my 18s but they still make a very nice sound and for 99% of my work are more than adequate.

Also they won’t couple like a proper horn, however using 4 does seem to make them drop slightly lower, this possibly more a “perceived” effect than actual.

HPF them at 45hz and LPF them at 90-100hz and they will do you proud, any more than 100hz and they don’t sound as sweet.



Edited by APW - 22 May 2017 at 7:58pm
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