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Mini scoops as mids ?

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unrulysoldier View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 August 2016 at 6:16am
Hi y'all. Can anyone tell me if it's ok to use mini scoops as mids ?
I don't know what design these are .. but two have 500 watt drivers in and two have 800 watt drivers.
All are 18 inch.
The alternative is my old 15 inch 600 watt bins but they're a bit rough round the edges now and the cabinets are too small in volume for the wattage drivers that are inside them. . 600 watts ( need better matched volume cabinet I think as they sound a bit choked. ).

I know as a 4 up the mini scoops can do decent bass duties .. i think they were being used for kick bass on some big scoops but I'm not sure.
My old mids are a bit past it now so figure these may be ok.
Underneath is two double 18s push pull.
On top is HH horns.
Many thanks
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jbl_man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbl_man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2016 at 11:06am
GSA have been doing it for years.


Be seeing you.
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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2016 at 11:42am
With a box and driver that was specifically designed for that purpose yes.
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bob4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2016 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by unrulysoldier unrulysoldier wrote:

Hi y'all. Can anyone tell me if it's ok to use mini scoops as mids ?
I don't know what design these are .. but two have 500 watt drivers in and two have 800 watt drivers.
All are 18 inch.
The alternative is my old 15 inch 600 watt bins but they're a bit rough round the edges now and the cabinets are too small in volume for the wattage drivers that are inside them. . 600 watts ( need better matched volume cabinet I think as they sound a bit choked. ).


first thing you need to understand is that power rating of drivers is the most meaningless of all specs on it's own


Only when considered in conjunction with thiele-small parameters (of the driver) and the enclosure design details it becomes meaningful

Also there is no "rule" or correlation between a driver's power rating and the size of box "needed".

Regarding your main question, if it's ok to use the mini scoop for mids:
Of course you can! The question is if you will be happy with the results. It depends on the drivers in the scoop. 15 inch scoops were designed to be used up to 500 - 1000 Hz. But there is a compromise in sound.

You might have to apply some EQ to get enough mids out of your 18" drivers.


Bottom line is, you have to provide folks here with much more information than just "Watts" if you want useful advice.

Keep us updated about your process and results, good luck!


Edited by bob4 - 10 August 2016 at 2:14pm
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unrulysoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unrulysoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2016 at 10:45am
Thanks for the feedback people.
Here's a link to an image of the mini scoops minus the grills.
They are loaded with Fane drivers.. Colossus i think. 



Edited by unrulysoldier - 11 August 2016 at 10:47am
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unrulysoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unrulysoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2016 at 10:46am
wide shot of them. Perhaps they are what's known as hogs?
http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/unrulysoldier/media/11261817_380995925425494_6316106438317572872_n_zpsapupybwh.jpg. -



Edited by unrulysoldier - 11 August 2016 at 10:47am
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odc04r View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2016 at 2:02pm
Seems like a great way of overcomplicating things and asking for a weird phase integration to the boxes underneath of the port is active.

I'd be thinking of sealed boxes for dedicated mids personally, or perhaps a short horn at a push and depending on frequencies involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevinmcdonough Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2016 at 3:23pm
hey

yeah it's defo possible, but not without it's challenges.

The main thing about scoop subs is the interaction between the sound coming from the horn section and the sound coming from the front face of the driver and the point they meet/cross over. Some funny phase interactions happen, but this is seen as a good thing and is what gives the scoop it's unique sound. 

Using a smaller scoop style cab that's designed for mid frequencies means that this point of funny phase goings on will be pushed up into the mid band. At the very least it may take some work tunning and time aligning to get it to sound right, and the unique sound it imparts may end up just doing more harm than good in the mid frequencies and may just not be desirable. 

If you have them there and it doesn't cost you anything to set it up and have a play, then why not try it and see. Try and get it outside in the open somewhere if you can so you're not being affected by room acoustics etc, and have a play with the crossover frequencies and time aligning a bit and see what it sounds like. Ultimately you might end up deciding it doesn't sound right and that you want to make something new that's dedicated to mids rather than using them, but it's always good to give it a go, nice wee learning experience if nothing else. 


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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2016 at 9:11pm
I wouldn't myself.

Consider the decades of experience most sound system boys have had. Most of them keep scoops low, big rigs maybe a horn low mid/kick, but mids are typically sealed or reflex. HF is comp horn with or without piezo or other vhf.

I am not a great fan myself, but that kind of rig is almost an instrument in its own right, giving quite a specific tone to the overall output. Like any instrument, the musicianship in its playing makes a huge difference. I have engineered bands through them, with some success, so I am not saying it can't be done, but personally I would find a reflex mid easier and more predictable.

As mentioned most scoops dip where the direct radiated wave is out of phase with the rear radiated horn loaded wave. If you wanted to use such a design on mid, you would need to design it to make sure that dip is out of band, or at the very least, at your intended x-over point, so the cab's natural roll off assists in crossing over to the next higher band. You would then need to feck about with everything in your dsp's arsenal to hold it all together.

Or just stick 2 decent 12" drivers in an easy to build box, and get on listening to some choons.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unrulysoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2016 at 11:23am
Hey thanks for the replies y'all.
I'll consider using my reflex 15s for now until I can build some single or twin 15 boxes.
I did notice lack of punch / phasing in the sound test with the mini scoops on mid signal.
Can anyone name the style of twin 12 or 15 mid bins that has the driver at the back .. visible and swept convex sides toward the listener left abd right ?
Ice heard then and the reach / dispersion was amazing and they seemed just so clear.
Cheers

Edited by unrulysoldier - 12 August 2016 at 11:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2016 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by unrulysoldier unrulysoldier wrote:

Hey thanks for the replies y'all.
I'll consider using my reflex 15s for now until I can build some single or twin 15 boxes.
I did notice lack of punch / phasing in the sound test with the mini scoops on mid signal.
Can anyone name the style of twin 12 or 15 mid bins that has the driver at the back .. visible and swept convex sides toward the listener left abd right ?
Ice heard then and the reach / dispersion was amazing and they seemed just so clear.
Cheers
 
Lots of hornloaded mids are generally laid out like that, on this site the MT122 has similar (though not identical) features, one other classic design is the JBL 4550/4560 series. Selenium published plans for some hornlaoded boxes with curved sides as well - uploads/2182/PAS-1-3.pdf, uploads/2182/PAS-4-6.pdf.
 
HTH,
David.
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