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Mini Scoops - Reality check

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Aman Gebru View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:26am
Yep it is the question, can a port act with both characteristics of Helmholtz resonance and open pipe resonance simultaneously.

The impedance plot of a transmission line gives nothing away, as it also has 2 peaks. To quote Martin J King, "When you combine a pipe and a driver you are merging two mechanical systems to produce a new mechanical system with its own resonant properties. You need to look at the driver as one system, the pipe as a separate system, and the driver in the pipe as an entirely new combined system."

One thing a TL always has is stuffing. Dr Bailey's long haired wool is your friend here. The stuffing helps slow the speed of air, hence lengthening the pipe and filtering out some of the resonances. A mini scoop of course does not have stuffing it its port, so differs here. I wonder what would happen if you stuffed the port. Would lots of people at a dance be covered in long hair ha ha.

In my BassBox Pro simulations I have the option to add vent resonance peaks. But this doesn't effect the outcome by much because of a few factors. These are 1. The drivers output helps mask the pipe resonances. This would not be the case in a pure bandpass type enclosure. 2. The resonant peaks and associated harmonics are very narrow in bandwidth, making them hard to detect. 3. The system is bandwidth limited. A low pass filter is always used that helps attenuate upper harmonics.

Granted a larger and longer port does have more problems with resonances, but in my simulations not enough to be problematic, even when not stuffed.

One thing I am sure about is that a mini scoop is not a rear loaded horn. The total lack of the third resonant peak in the impedance plot is enough of a give away here. If a port measurement was to be made of a mini scoop it would not have to be bandwidth limited, as that might mask any of the resonances.

Maybe the jury is out, but its looking more like a reflex to me. If you look around for mini scoop designs most do seem to have expanding ports. I've seen a few with constant width ports and most of the designs out there appear to have very short ports, maybe around the 1 to 1.2 meter length. The question for those who use these things everyday and have heard many of the different designs is, which goes lower and which plays louder. Does an expanding port sound better than a constant width port. Do longer ports play lower and do smaller throats play lower but with less output. Guess that will go to the grave with them.


  


Edited by Aman Gebru - 07 January 2017 at 10:28am
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nickyburnell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:36am
So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.

It's everything, not everythink!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BASSHORSE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:17am
whats the defernition of a rear loaded horn??..more volume out the back of the speaker than the front? if so,,my minis are rear loaded horns rather than a reflex Thumbs Up
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Aman Gebru View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:45am
Originally posted by BASSHORSE BASSHORSE wrote:

whats the defernition of a rear loaded horn??..more volume out the back of the speaker than the front? if so,,my minis are rear loaded horns rather than a reflex Thumbs Up


Ooohhh, ha ha, have you just said that.

You just hurt my head lol. Where's that pic of Ray liotta.

Rear loaded horn is a scoop, or anything where you can see the front of the driver, which then has a chamber behind it, (not a chamber like in pyramids of Egypt), and then a horn from the chamber to the outside. A horn normally looks like a long thin thing that gets bigger near the end. No its not ya dick.

"Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub."

I don't see any argument Nicky. Everyone wants max output with least size. It's even more important to the pro touring guys as they have to cart the stuff about every night, with smaller and smaller trucks as the accountant's say what the budget is and still put on a show that doesn't get them sued.

Reggae, well it's a way of life. A religion, a way of expressing yourself. For some it's a theme park ride to show whose best. It's still a ride though and I like rides.

You can get off at any time you know.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:49am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...
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Aman Gebru View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:00pm
Oh dear, here we go again.

Thinking that lower is the new god and using sound is the best way to define who you are.

If you only go out there to use what others have provided to make yourself look good then f**k off really. You have missed the whole point and have become a massive slave to your own publicity machine.

You will understand this one day. Hope it's not too late.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Agreed. Rc1 took 6 bass cabs to golden palace and it was very dissapointing. Loud 55-80hz as said, nothing really underneath. Took a couple steps back from the stack and half of it dissapeared! Middle and back of the room was nothing there at all. Now im not knocking their hustle as they know if you take out x3 times the amount of cabs its gna be loud no matter what with x amounts of stacks. But box for box for terrible. Im not surprised toasty is getting some of their jobs.
Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Oh dear, here we go again.

Thinking that lower is the new god and using sound is the best way to define who you are.

If you only go out there to use what others have provided to make yourself look good then f**k off really. You have missed the whole point and have become a massive slave to your own publicity machine.

You will understand this one day. Hope it's not too late.


you also seem to be missing the point that todays modern music has A LOT of 30hz

If you cant be hitting those low notes properly, then whoever can hit those notes, will get the booking.
You can't polish a turd!
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Aman Gebru View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:49pm
Noted.

But I'm just here to educate really. I'm not here to make myself look good by using external stuff that has principles I don't understand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:57pm
Brilliant thread none the less!
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Aman Gebru View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

If you cant be hitting those low notes properly, then whoever can hit those notes, will get the booking.


Wow, this is what I needed to hear. I did wonder why my back account is showing half of what it did last year.



Edited by Aman Gebru - 07 January 2017 at 12:59pm
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nickyburnell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2017 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

So Shortman is, "more" of a reflex than other minis, therefore it sounds best because as everyone knows reflex is best in sub heavy music. RC1 have proven this along with the FACT that horns in small places are doggy poo.
Me thinks too many punters are confusing 55/80 hz venue shaking with sub bass too.
Excellent writings AmanThumbs Up
Trouble is we have to split the argument, Roots/Reggae and other. One has pre-amp, one not and there IMHO is the rub.



Odd that several RC1 clients have used us as well because we get much lower than their reflex... I think again your comments about people confusing 55-80 peak output as sub is even more true. But without measurements who can say for sure...


Interesting: Only reviews I've seen say it's mad from front to back, although they are FB reviews so who knows?  Plenty touring companies hit the back with 2x18's reflex. Perhaps the RC1 thing is just a one trick pony for D&B?  Anyway as the physics zealots tell us, throw does not exit so.......
As for the confusion by the public about 55/80 I think this is proven by the F218 and I'll get my coat.Wink
Yin Yang


Edited by nickyburnell - 07 January 2017 at 1:11pm
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