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PA Amps/Indoor 240V Mains/Failure types.

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levyte357- View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PA Amps/Indoor 240V Mains/Failure types.
    Posted: 28 August 2012 at 4:41pm
Didn't want to further clog up "the wanted thread" on this.

Seems if certain amps go pop, and take out drivers, some automatically assume mains voltage might be contributing factor, even if indoor on ring main.

Are some amplifiers more prone to catastrophic failure than others, due to mains over voltage?

Over last 5 years, in regards to systems playing doors, typically on ring main/13A sockets, was told of approx 20-30 cases of Sub amplifiers

a) Catching fire,
b) Blowing fuse/components,
c) Blowing and taking out drivers

In all instances,

a) Other amps/hardware in rack/connected to mains still functioning
b) ALL  speaker/power leads tested previous to gig,


Amps which had simply blown a component/transistors/output stages/PSU sections, included EV, MC2, Crest, Crown QSC, Labgruppen, Powersoft, Peavey, Proline, Camco, Ecler, Behringer, Kam, Cmark, China Crest copies, etc.

In all these cases, only two particular brands had repeatedly reported  tendency to catch fire or blow all drivers connected to outputs when blown, or feed DC to drivers, when failure occured.

So for some of us, automatically considering mains voltage as a culprit is a non runner.

Hearing of certain brand blowing and taking out drivers/catching fire, is no surprise, as some amps have more reports of failing like this than others.



Edited by levyte357- - 28 August 2012 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dougies Music Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2012 at 9:24pm
Not following your point?

Are you asking which amps are prone to catching fire, or suggesting you know which certain particular brands of amps are prone to catching fire?

Or something else completely..?
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levyte357- View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2012 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by Dougies Music Dougies Music wrote:

Not following your point?

Are you asking which amps are prone to catching fire, or suggesting you know which certain particular brands of amps are prone to catching fire?



Asking the question, why is it, if people report problems with "certain amps" around here, automatic assumption "by some" is user fault or mains issue.

However,  "typically", when other brands such as Crown, QSC, Crest etc are reported blown or with problems, typically normal reasoning/logic is applied/suggested, as opposed to assumptions in the above scenario.


Edited by levyte357- - 30 August 2012 at 9:52pm
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GAZ. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAZ. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2012 at 11:38pm
So, was anyone thats had one of these amps fail, actually measuring the voltage at the moment it failed and found it to be too high? or even few minutes after the failure?

I dont see how the over voltage thing can carry any weight otherwise.
And how high was too high?

Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2012 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by GAZ. GAZ. wrote:


Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.


My point exactly.

The other line is, well I have 1E06 of these amps in installs, and none have failed, so user must be doing something wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAZ. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 12:06am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


Originally posted by GAZ. GAZ. wrote:


Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.


My point exactly.

The other line is, well I have 1E06 of these amps in installs, and none have failed, so user must be doing something wrong.



Same again, even something that is known to be reliable will wear out or go wrong in some way eventually.

Get the same sort of thing all the time in the TV world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VentureSound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 9:08am
I wonder if you put a roots program on telly it would catch fire? Tongue

No, but seriously, everything electronic fails at some point. However, more expensive things tend to use better quality components and/ or have better engineering to reduce this. IMO, things produced 20-30 years ago like the Crown MA and Crest amps were over-engineered and made properly, if you used them on 2 ohms etc, they wouldn't really grumble, and the air blowing out of them was cooler than it is today. 
The trend for everything to go lightweight these days has caused manufacturers to do things like reduce heatsink area so its no wonder stuff runs hotter and in some cases catch fire. 

Now, personally I can accept that an amp might fail at some point because its electronic and that's what happens, especially if I know i'm caning it a bit I kind-of know I had it coming. 
However, what I don't accept is if said amp fails and licks out 4-8 of my expensive drivers at the same time.  To me, that is a shit amp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 10:39am
The problem is though when I instal a amp it is only going to be working at around 50% at 4r before it hits a hard limit. When out on a job with a touring style rack I drive them a lot harder, Still try to keep it at 4r though.

A amp at 50% 4r as apposed to 2db before clip at 2r is going to last a lot longer.

If you want complete redundancy and safety from amps catching on fire and failing. Be sensible.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 10:56am
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:


If you want complete redundancy and safety from amps catching on fire and failing. Be sensible.


Indeed.

However, seems even if you are being sensible, some amps will still fail, and or catch fire/blow all drivers connected.

And as Venture sound eloquently put it, that is merde.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 11:16am
Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

However, what I don't accept is if said amp fails and licks out 4-8 of my expensive drivers at the same time.  To me, that is a shit amp.


Next time buy FFA :) well defiantly give them a try! Not cheap but I am 100% sure your problems will be solved with top class British back up service.


Edited by jacethebase - 31 August 2012 at 11:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyPyro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 12:18pm
Lev
 
I think you will find the biggest problem is ignorance and abuse.
I'm a firm believer in preventative maintenaince, esp having worked as a service engineer for a few years now.
The amount of stuff ive seen over the years is mental ," this amps shit, that light dont give out anything" and its always the units fault .. nothing to do with the fans are knackered and its full of crap LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taurusty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2012 at 4:33pm
I rem when Micro/Macrotechs were just introduced & they had a high failure rate.
All the old fogey's of the day were grumbling that their DC 300's were much better & Y did Crown change?
 
Same w the IT Series; ppl flashed back to the 'superiority of Macrotechs...
Could it also be the rosy halo of memory too?
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