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B&C 12TBX100 12" - for sub?

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Category: Plans
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13757
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Topic: B&C 12TBX100 12" - for sub?
Posted By: darkmatter
Subject: B&C 12TBX100 12" - for sub?
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 3:42pm
Has anyone tried designing anything around this stupidly expensive driver?

It looks like it could be monstrously loud in a punisher style cab. I tried modelling it (tweaked Atc up to 531 from 490) and it looks very loud, but response shows quite a strong 'smiley face' curve between the peaks at ~50 and ~100. I've got no idea what tweaking the various parameters will do, or what they mean in practice, so I didn't get very far.

Just wondering whether anyone's had a play? Seems like, as the driver's rated at 2000W, it could be used in a very nice compact (but loud) bass horn design.

I'm guessing the stated 9mm Xmax is in practice fairly similar to the SW12's quoted 11.5mm and shouldn't be a problem?

Maybe people reckon that when you're spending that much money, it's for the refined sound/low distortion, something that'd only really matter in a cab that plays higher?

http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=1&id_descrizione=2&prodotto=6&id_descrizione_prod=1



Replies:
Posted By: mylesound
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 5:28pm
you should try the tbx32. with the same power rating&sens. and a 10mm Xmax rather than the 9mm. and a 40 hz fs rather than the 45 it might be the better driver. not to mention its fairly cheeper. Id like to know how either of these drivers perform in the punisher cab because i can get my hands on them rather easily.
Thankss..


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 12:07am
Having looked into it a bit, if you want the maximum low extension then you need the Ciare.  Using drivers like the TBX100 you seem to get better efficiency and a flatter response.  Definitely a good option if you wanted to use subs below the Punishers and run them a little higher.


Posted By: MattyTheRig
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 1:40am
what do you qualify as subs ceharden? for example, for live work, a punisher isn't all that big, and you dont need much <45 so to up it *slightly* into the kick range may make it a particually useful little box? i've been contemplating knocking up some punishers for a while, and now my festool is alive and kicking i might just have me a play. it really is a wonderful piece of kit, gets me in the garage when its 3 degrees.... and is much cheaper than billie piper.

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Sounds Good...


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 1:47am
Don't ask me to be specific like that!!!  In that case I meant something to do maybe 50-60Hz and down.

I've actually got some Punishers, not sure exactly why, seemed like a good idea at the time!  One of my mates will be buying them eventually.....

I would say the actual lower limit is more like 50Hz really but they're fine for live work.  Two per side loaded with the B&C would probably work quite well.

But the reason I don't use the Punishers is that I've built some compact 18" reflex boxes which play lower and higher, are easier to power, have a cleaner sound and just more sensible for the jobs I do (mainly tribute bands etc).


Posted By: MattyTheRig
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 2:50am
mmm.... i really like the idea of a smaller, more powerful and accurate driver being coupled to the air better, as we all know there are phase issues with most transducers, so to effectively have a infinitely small but infinitely powerful motor with a chock off big funnel of air attached to it  makes me feel in my head like its doing the job better... god only knows why. having my first b&c experience next week i hope, so i'll probably acquire some punishers too.... accidentally of course!....

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Sounds Good...


Posted By: MattyTheRig
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 2:53am
plus i find, with some bands, if they 'cant see the speakers' then surely they're sh1t...

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Sounds Good...


Posted By: mylesound
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 4:29am
Originally posted by MattyTheRig MattyTheRig wrote:

mmm.... i really like the idea of a smaller, more powerful and accurate driver being coupled to the air better, as we all know there are phase issues with most transducers, so to effectively have a infinitely small but infinitely powerful motor with a chock off big funnel of air attached to it  makes me feel in my head like its doing the job better... god only knows why. having my first b&c experience next week i hope, so i'll probably acquire some punishers too.... accidentally of course!....

B&C. which plans?
how about tring their drivers in a punisher for a change.
i think someone alwready tried the sd 12 and had good results


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 11:52am
Cheers for the advice everyone! Might look into the tbx32 option if I can work out a way to integrate subs below a punisher style bass horn.


Posted By: mylesound
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 3:13pm
Dark matter.
does that really make sence tho? another horn for lower bass than that of a punisher might be rather big. where would you leave the subs and start the punisher on your xover?
why not just go for a larger stack of puns. and load em with the reccomended driver. i was just talking about the TBX 32 because my friend is a dealer for b&c and i can get them fairly cheap


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 5:52pm
nah you're right, ignore that comment mate. i'm new to this , but i suspected when i posted that the only thing you could maybe integrate under a punisher would be a massive sub bass horn, which completely destroys the point of owning punishers of course. i didn't know whether that was actually the case so i asked around and people more knowledgeable than me have confirmed itSmile


Posted By: rich, ind.st
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 9:18pm
beyma lx60 is good, 9mm xmax, slightly more expensive than the ciare but to my ears sounded much more musical, admittedly in wicked ones rather than puinishers...

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music is god


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 12 January 2008 at 1:33am
darkmatter: Mate, if you get four Punishers then you'll cross them out around 47-50Hz to get the best sound out of them. But when you get above that they just go lower and lower.

I don't think you need to be worried about subs to be honest. Just get more of the same!


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 12 January 2008 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Just get more of the same!


I will. And the linkups will be dangerousLOL


Posted By: Crashpc
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 9:45am
I'm one of happy owners of 12TBX100. You can ask for everything about it.
I put it in this box :
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=3&categoria=45&prodotto=166
and made bassreflex longer from 240 to 290mm.(lower tuning freq) and box longer from 340 to 355 mm inside. It can handle about 150W of power without subsonic filter or HPF...
frequency response is surprisingly "wide" especially if you look at the 12" PA speaker in 35-40l box, but it is not so good to play some mega subwoofer tests. You can push it to play 40-42Hz preciously but linear excursion will increase rapidly, so you cannot use 500W of power then. I guess that 12PS100 version of this speaker can do very similar job, and the 15" piece will worth too - both for lower price than 12TBX100. If you make bassreflex box, you cannot employ 4" voicecoil. It will touch its mechanical limits far far earlier than limits of the huge copper coil.
I use PA speakers in my car longer time. Started with Eminence Delta12LF, but it need huge volumes to make it play good and strong. But i didn't want to sacrifice all the boot place (car). I put it in the 48litre closed box. It was bad choice. It had low SPL, too little of bass...
Than I bought 12TBX100 although I know I cannot use its power in the car, because its going to kill you if you use 500W amplifier. But the nice sound....

sory for my bad english :-)


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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?


Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 2:45pm
Please play attention on how B&C calculate their x-max. The Ciare has a real 11.5mm coil overhang( (33-10)/2). The B&C has (25-12)/2=6.5mm overhang.
 
Sp when it comes to clean LF / sub output the Ciare has 10log((11.5/6.5)^2) = 5dB more maximal lineair output.
 
Best regards,


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by Contour Contour wrote:

Please play attention on how B&C calculate their x-max. The Ciare has a real 11.5mm coil overhang( (33-10)/2). The B&C has (25-12)/2=6.5mm overhang.
 
Sp when it comes to clean LF / sub output the Ciare has 10log((11.5/6.5)^2) = 5dB more maximal lineair output.
 
Best regards,
 
I've often wondered what people meant by "x manufacturer use the mathematical, not the real method for calculating xmax", so thanks for explaining that, makes a lot more sense now!


Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:05pm
Please note I do not say the B&C  12TBX100 is a bad driver, in fact I think it will work quite good in the Punisher. And if you set your HPF properly you will most likely not face x-max problems.
 
But a single or two Punishers, driven hard , with EQ to get lower and HPF 30Hz or lower will get the cones moving no problem.
 
Best regards,
 
Walt


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:41pm
When I attempted to model them in the punisher, it seemed the response from the B&C 12TBX100 looks flatter than with the Ciare 12.00SW, but they don't go as low. I'm new to modelling speaker response so I had no way of knowing whether I was on the right track though.
 
If I ever get a 12TBX100 to play around with I'll stick one in a punisher and post up results :)


Posted By: Crashpc
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 4:35pm
nobody thinks that 12TBX100 is bad :-D Xmax and quality are two different things. even SLP and Xmax are not the same. If you use some right tuned horn box, you can touch power and thermal limits earlier than mechanical Xmax.
I am the one, who uses this speaker not for the SPL, but for nice sound, so i cannot meet some problems with linear excursion. At +- 5 mm excursion, its starting to devastate my car LOL When I use 40Hz HP filter, there is no way to get it over 3-4 mm without covered ears...

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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?



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