crown vs lab gruppen
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=18976
Printed Date: 19 April 2024 at 7:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: crown vs lab gruppen
Posted By: hi grade
Subject: crown vs lab gruppen
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 1:26pm
| crown ma 5000 vs lab gruppen 6400 whos better ? |
Replies:
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 1:40pm
|
One weighs a ton and has a highly unrefined sound, one is light enough to pick up with one finger and has a very clean, accurate sound. I'll let you guess which is which..... |
Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:28pm
| Arc welder vs professional ampilfier |
Posted By: the smf
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:31pm
|
i cant even believe its bein asked which amp is better out of these 2 whats better, a ford or a ferrari..............ummmm, i wonder
|
Posted By: Stumbler
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:43pm
on proper sub tho..... (let the old argument begin )  ------------- not as straight forward as i first imagined.. |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:45pm
|
It's called distortion. Makes things sound louder (psychoacoustics is an interesting subject). 'Warm' up the sound with some tubes (real or dsp) and you'll be there.
------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:46pm
 |
Stumbler wrote:Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:49pm
Sorry steve, I gave in  .------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:52pm
whatever you might wanna call it, the question still remains can it play real low sub bass as good as the crown? ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 2:54pm
|
Lab Gruppen fp 6400 Lab Gruppen - fp6400 Key Features 2 x 1280 watts @ 8 ohms 2 x 2200 watts @ 4 ohms 2 x 2500 watts @ 2 ohms (Measured just below clip level, with both channels driven) Light weight and compact: only 10 kg (22 lbs), 2U high MLS? Switch: Lab.gruppen?s unique power matching for different loads Class TD design in flagship models (fP 6400 and fP 3400) wow its only 10kg!!!!!!!!! i didnt realise it was that light! ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 1:37pm
|
OK.. I have worked quite a lot with both of these amps as well as quite a few other products in the same power range..
For general purpose use, the Lab wins - its light, compact and fairly powerful.
For bass heavy electronic music or reggae*, I'd definately go for the Ma5000.. It doesnt sound as nice as the Lab, its big and heavy, but its got a real powersupply** wich makes it able to deliver high power for extended periods..
* Tracks like these will make the FP6400 run out of steam pretty fast if you are running it at close to full power.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlZknvDQv4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvlZknvDQv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI4f6kRnEH8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI4f6kRnEH8
** A lot of the lightweight amps on the market today tends to have some issues with the size of their PSU - they simply cant deliver full power constantly..
The powersupply issue can be described using the plumbers example:
you need a 10 litre burst of water in 1 second to flush the toilet..
there are 2 ways to solve this:
A: Install a HUGE waterpipe ( the conventional, heavy amps like the 5000VZ )
B: Install a reservoir and connect it to the regular 1/2" pipe in the building.. Dump the contents of the reservoir when you need to flush.
Solution B is by far the most cost effective method, and it will work perfectly under normal conditions, but when you invite your friends over for pints, the toilet will see a larger demand for the reservoir - infact the toilet will be flushing so often that the reservoir wont have time to refill completely..
I had a cheapish lightweight amp on the bench for some time ago.. Specs claimed it to do 2K into a 4 ohm load.. It did, but only for less than 0.5 seconds wereafter it dec ided to use the limiter to keep the amp in the PSU safe mode..
/peter
------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 1:51pm
|
I don't even think the 5000 is seen as a sound (haha) investment anymore, whereas a Lab4000 / Fp6400 is..
And from what I've found, heard in real-world jobs, they deliver 'low bass' perfectly well.... and I mean low bass, not just dance music!
|
Posted By: bitcore
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 12:18am
|
Peter, if the lab falls on it's face on bass duty when playing *those* tracks, I can only imagine how bad it is on the type of music I enjoy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_38hditk7g - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_38hditk7g aphex twin - xtal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY4Dov9afhA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY4Dov9afhA dilinja - valve sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIx5jldKaEY - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIx5jldKaEY qemists - stompbox (spor remix) [one of my favorites, its like a constant sine] I need an amp that can play that last one, full tilt, on a loop for 24 hours, and push out at least 1500W/ch @ 8 ohms, bridged or not. ------------- http://bitcore.org/stuff/Bass_Tones/ - Bass Tones & Sweeps in 160kbit MP3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=mC9XqmyKaOY - I<3bass 
|
Posted By: lapford1
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:18am
Lab(light) or Matrix(Heavy!) Love those things you can get to gruppen with but also love having a work out putting gear in the van Trouble is there isn't alot in it to my ears, but if you want to go low, then go buy a bottle of lucozade and spend your money with andy! ( nearly had to flip a coin over that one but Bang for Buck, Matrix wins all day long!!!!)------------- Hmmm Meyer!!! Heavy!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:24am
|
Ultimately, if you can afford it, putting another fP6400 in your rack to make up the extra power reserves is still insignificant weight compared with a VZ5! Also consider that even if your amp is capable of a full power continuous sine wave, do you really want to be feeding that into your speakers for any length of time. The important thing I guess is that things like fp6400's and Camco V6's have always been able to drive the speakers as hard as I'd want to! |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 1:31am
|
try some iration steppas tracks.... i cant imagine many lightweight amps would enjoy that (im not inciting the old heavy vs light argument here but the psu's just werent designed for that) ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: bitcore
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 2:45am
Absolutely. When I build my subterranean bunker of aural pleasure and pain one day, the drivers will be spec'ed to handle a crazy continuous load.... it's going to happen one day. There are some drivers that eat up a full 3Kw for hours like it was no problem at all..... but please remember, I'm a bit insane for how much bass I want. ------------- http://bitcore.org/stuff/Bass_Tones/ - Bass Tones & Sweeps in 160kbit MP3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=mC9XqmyKaOY - I<3bass
|
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 4:53pm
IMO you will be disappointed with the Lab stuff and other light weight products... Look for something nice and heavy instead.. But make sure you can try the amp in real life situations before you make any purchase..
Most sound rental places will have Crown Ma5000VZ etc. in their rentalstock, so it shouldnt be a huge problem finding one..
/peter ------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: Tedski
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 11:13pm
Sorry but thats just bull. Quality is not measured by weight. The vz5000's give you a free bucketload of distortion. If thats what you like, fine. Todays lightweight amps deliver heavy bass just fine. Our F221's powered by E45s sound damn good, on 2 ohm, on sustained sub. As do the fp6400's we have used in clubs, as do FFA5000's on Infra's. As for most rental places owning 5000's, we have never and will never own one, and I do not know of many places that do own them. It is not the benchmark amp, it's too freakin' heavy. I'm sure the Inf8 for example is great, but thats not because its heavy. It's 2008, 30 kilo amps are stupid. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 11:27pm
|
all the rental houses i know ( quite a few) are moving on their inventory of heavy amps for the same reasons
1) there heavy
2) modern light weight amps are more than capable of operating as well, if not better than the heavies they replace
using reasons like "i need an amp which can deliver a full power sine wave continuously" simply tells me one thing
you need more power!
smps every time in the real world - if ive got less than 10db of headroom on the system im running i know i should have brought a bigger rig
so, get the lab. everytime.
|
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 5:15am
|
Tedski, csg:
I know for a fact that the FP6400 will not output its rated power continously - Labgruppen had a whitepaper on their site outlining how they measured this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060721041634/http://www.labgruppen.com/media/Testing_Procedure_v1.pdf - http://web.archive.org/web/20060721041634/http://www.labgruppen.com/media/Testing_Procedure_v1.pdf
To be a bit harsh about it: if the amp needs 66 miliseconds to recover from a 33milisecond full power burst, you need 3 of these amps to get continuous full power :-)
Like it or not, the MA5000VZ delivers 2500W per ch into a 2 ohm load constantly, without limiting its output and claiming its a "service" to you ( I dont know about you, but I dont run my ampracks full tilt on a 10A mains fuse expecting not to blow any fuses )
That said: The FP6400 sounds great for most uses, but for bass-heavy stuff like the examples mentioned, it just runs out of headroom ( sorry - its saves your mains fuses ) way before the 5000 and other heavy lumps of copper and iron does.
The 5000 is far from my favourite sub amp - in fact, I am not happy with it at all, but it does keep its promises in the power dept.
The 5000 was the industry standard for many years until manufacturers started offering light weight amps that would cover most users needs, but just like the vinyl vs cd discussion, there are still many situations where the old technology wins..
As a side note, it seems that I am not the only one who has some issues about the at times misleading way of posting specs: http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/Power_Ratings_Tech_Note.pdf - http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/Power_Ratings_Tech_Note.pdf
/peter
------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 9:17am
|
Hi, Not making a counterpoint or anything, neither of the amps is a favourite... I'd just like to post the 3rd party numbers for the fP 6400 so people can see. Bink's amp shootout. 117vac supply 4 ohm stereo Continuous sine wave. 20hz - 1327W 1khz - 2310W 20khz - 648W Amps are rated by Lab Gruppen, at 4ohm bridge, >117Vac 1Khz - 2200W 20-20K - 2300W And here's Crown results. http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/24996/0/32/0/ - http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/24996/0/32/0/ These are given by the manufacturer. ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 11:32am
|
Peter,
im perfectly aware that the lab will not deliver full power long term bursts. but that is my point exactly
what the amp is perfectly capable of doing is providing high power amplification of a dynamic input signal. It is already well established that the power of a system is a pointless statistic. the spl it can achieve is the important number
as i said before, i have no problem playing anything thru light weight amps because i will ensure that headroom is preserved.
ive used macros many times over the year, and yes they are powerful. but the sound they produce and the amount they weigh precludes them from modern world selection in my opinion.
and it seems im not alone. amps like macros, crest p series etc are becoming a rare sight in the professional sector. they have in no way dissapeared, but are doing so, slowly.
if the only way to provide amplification on a pro level was heavies, then everybody would be buying amps like infinate 8's
but there not.
of course, this is just my opinion.
however, if you are on a buget and need to rinse every watt out of your amps, then you are better with a heavy weight. that is not the way i like to work.
but saying heavies are simply better is like saying that the only way to get low bass is to use a scoop.....
im running for cover now!
|
Posted By: Nick Sasquash
Date Posted: 24 August 2008 at 9:38pm
|
Crown Vz is a beast... Simple....even pon heavy b lines it delivers whet it says it will :-) I cant hear any distortion when i play mine... Well yes, i suppose i can... but that is always the venue shakin to bits ;-) ------------- https://operationsoundsystemrecords.bandcamp.com/ https://www.facebook.com/OperationSoundSystem/ |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 24 August 2008 at 10:13pm
I will tell you the truth about all off these amp rating info published its a load off  ics.The greater the output power from an amplifier the greater the build cost.  so all the ratings are about justifying there bu t how much an amp puts out is simply down to the choice and desire to make it the size it is  and the build cost. and How much money people will pay for it. "marketing" the loser is the customer  ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 2:16am
|
Now Andy, back to the point - which amp do you like? or do you not like either? I have never seen an MA5000VZ's 3rd party measurements shown in public. That's why I couldn't put one up. Now, who's willing to step up to the plate? ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 4:43am
|
all i can say is the 6 of sept we´l have one of each running 4 bins each we be playing dubstep ,dub drumanbrass roots, steppas and danchall for like 10hrs hardcore i´l let you know kow kills the night
------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 6:59am
|
i am biused as i have a crown xti here. and last year i sound tested a lab yet again and measured it. ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 8:31am
------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 11:44am
|
how much does it cost to get the smps powerfull enough to actualy deliver, if so many highly regarded companies have a practice of undersizing the psu presumably to do so isnt just a simple and cheap job to do, andy perhaps youve got an idea of relative price for the correct size of smps for theese amps? ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 12:34pm
as an amp builder whats your conclusion  ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 12:37pm
|
i have massive potential just need some one big ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 12:44pm
|
Peter,
if i bought a new bicycle i would indeed want it to have 2 wheels all the time, but your anology is not equivalent.
by saying that power ratings are largely irrelevant i am simply saying that if a product is suitable for its intended purpose, then power ratings and such are irrelevant
where you do have a point is when it comes to comparison between products. ratings like power output are useful for comparison where actual A-B tests are not possible, and where these ratings are relied upon, then it goes without saying that they should be measured in a similar way to ensure consistancy.
Amp manufactures do hold different views on what constitutes normal use, and while sine wave outputs do indeed present outputs on a level playing field, they do not represent real world working conditions.
Ive arrived at the decision to use lab gruppen amps after extensive testing and many years of experience.
i was my self very sceptical regarding the abilities of light weight amps for many years after their introduction, and stuck to using crest p series for the main part, with a few short lived and unfortunate exeptions.
but from a commercial and sound quality view point, the service, reliability, sound and credability i get from using labs far outweighs the disadvantages.
Interestingly, after using lab4000's and fp6400's for some time, i have never, never noticed the activation of the fuse saver feature. maybe i need to try harder! scince my current subs are 2 ohms per box, the labs often work quite hard.
so, as i have said, this debate is down to personal choices. as different people have different wants and priorities this debate will run and run. But, ive made my choice, and after several years i am still very happy with it ( my oldest lab 2000c was made in 1993!)
|
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 1:23pm
|
sorry ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 1:24pm
------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
and my he give give the the power to build more amps :biggupPosted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 2:33pm
------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 2:49pm
Not your fault all this, but its the same answer, to a different question on this site over and over.  Floor shaking or accurate, unrealistic or clean, heavy or light, choose you must.  ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 2:58pm
|
thats one of the reasons i didnt much care for the vz myself, sounds like what happens when iration floor it all the time to me, operation was similar but not as bad perhaps the one we used had been particularly mal-treated. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 3:05pm
Personally, the only lightweights I would consider are the best Powersoft, QSC PL series, or maybe the New JTS lightweight UA6. Have heard many, many dissappointing stories regarding the rest. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 3:12pm
|
you have to consider the aplication though dub and its derivatives are uncomparable to most mainstream music in its requirements and as such general PA equipment has never suited it too well i wouldnt like to pass coment on the above amps as ive little expirience with lightweights to go on but as ive said it comes back in essance to the lack or apparent lack of sufficiently powerfull smps being used in theese designs, for myself the next things on my list for trying out are a p3000 chevin A6000 and the infinite 8, i think i will in all proberablity start trading amps around till i find one i realy like on sub if by the time ive tried all theese their might even be a lightweight that id want to try, untill then im not interested. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 3:36pm
Every I know who has tried A6000 has loved it, saying it is better than VZ5000, and almost 9001 class.  However, do know of people saying it gets really hot, maybe even overheats, on 2ohm stereo sub duty. Would be interesting to hear why, and if it can be modded not to. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 3:46pm
|
I think we all know what Andy's views on the Xti is, it's the 10secondman! Lev, you have excellent taste in lightweights. Have you tried the FFA? it looks like an interesting one. Also, in a moment of paranoid premonition, I would like to ward transformer vultures to stay away, the requirements for SMPS trans and linear trans are very different. sks01, I would say that the closest thing you'd get to knowing what watts you're getting while playing your music would be a sine wave torture test. Or an actual bassline (just the bline only, so in a test situation you can see it on the scope and what happens when you give it your best). With some processing, you can figure out what distortion and what type of distortion is present. And 'general PA equipment' includes most of the old heavies, they were touring standards in their day. On amp ratings - I thought that the main marketing point for most amplifiers was their rated power output? And, as I have always maintained, if you don't like the numbers or question their accuracy, find a third party source (Bink comes to mind)! Or even do it yourself. And I'll finally reveal my standing on both amps - I don't like either particularly, the PL 6.0....mmm.... ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 4:08pm
|
I'll start a new A6000 thread, and stop hijacking this one.
------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 11:37pm
It can - and its fairly easy.. replace the fans with something that moves more air and runs on 230VAC.. One of the issues is that the fan controller pretty much modulates the airflow to the music signal.. The more signal, the faster the fans run... If the fans run constantly instead they move more heat away.. One could include a secondary thermal protection system aswell - it'd be relatively simple to use a thermoswitch to remove power from the overheating channel..
/peter ------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 11:59pm
Save all that good suff for the new thread mate. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 11:26am
|
hehe.. just picked up a macrotech 5000 for £499 from a bemused cash converters staff in an empty shop. looks like the credit crunch is biting. i'm interested to try it out on 6 wsx, not as much power (on paper) but wondering if i'll like the dirty bottom end. i'll report back after i've given it a spanking. (i'll leave the usual lab 6400 in the rack in case..) bit of a steal i reckon.. ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 1:31pm
Lucky, Lucky Bar steward..
If you get tired of it, I'have if off you for cost + 'lil bit' ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 2:43pm
wicked, i along with a few others would be very interested in the results  ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 4:10pm
one thing you might notice is that this amp doesnt run out of power like the Lab does.. It will do better on sustained bassnotes, but it does have some distortion issues that makes sound a bit different from the Lab..
I think you will be positively surprised..
Oh.. And yes - it is a great price..
/peter ------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 5:55pm
|
we used to use a a6000 to run 2 scoops a side (rx18 b&c neo loaded),the sound was very accurate and well damped but just didnt have that edge once turned up to play really heavy,i would say brill to use for your upper bass cabs!!! ------------- TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 6:10pm
I find that Mr. Clean amps like to have 'a little something' in the signal chain to give it the edge if you like that sort of thing, but you can stick it back - Aphex Aural Exciters and SPL Vitalizers work wonders for this (there are also other digital alternatives etc). ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 1:01pm
|
well.. the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 10:50am
|
well, the weekend is almost upon us, i'm going to take the crown out alongside the lab gruppens and a/b the bass end and see whats what. if anyone is about and interested in hearing the results, then pm me and i'll let you know where its at.... going to be powering 6 x wsx (3 a side at 2.66) ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: Marvin
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 12:17pm
| pls clear ur inbox Chilli just tried to pm u |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 2:38pm
| empty |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 3:12pm
|
chilli: You certainly did get a bargain there - well done! Ok, so lots of people say the MA-5000 has distortion issues. Has anybody done any scientific measurements? I've got a Leader 1701 Distortion Meter on my bench which will measure down to 0.0001% and up to 10%. However, I can only do this at 1kHz, as mine doesn't have the 100Hz or 10kHz options fitted. ------------- ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US. |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 3:28pm
|
I did some THD tests among others a while back. I'm zipping my mouth shut, but it was between Crest Pro and Macrotech. I can say that Crest won. I think you'll find that in most cases, there's a leap between low and high distortion. It's a question of who wins the waiting race. Here's a link to a great texts on distortion: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm - http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 7:08pm
|
whoops..cleared.
------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 7:26pm
When you're talking about amps like VZ5 and 9001, its easy to excuse a little of the distortion, when you consider the 2ohm reliability that you can almost take for granted.
2 ohm reliability is so scarce these days. Think I would only consider Crest, Crown, QSC and JTS for that.  ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 7:35pm
|
I used to have an amp that's not in those lists that liked the 1 ohm operation 24/7...and it wasn't a powersoft or a lab gruppen I talked about THD there because Wrighty posted about it - of course one has to take in all the other factors. ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 10:36pm
|
you want low impedence stability ?
Lab gruppen. stable to any (ANY) load - and ive tried it. Ive never managed to upset any labs.
|
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 5:41pm
|
well... ran the crown at the weekend instead of the usual lab gruppen 6400 and i have to say it was mighty impressive, for the type of music being played (breakcore/electro/techno) it totally drove the bottom end, i had many comments that the rig was the best they'd heard it, so i'm inclined to believe them. Whether the grunt was dirty was hard to fathom with the program material, but lets just say that next time i'm doing a techno event, then i'll put up with the 40 odd kg (plus flightcase), but probably not if its a more corporate do... a pretty good buy for £499 i'd say... ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 1:30pm
You get a lot of that with VZ5/9001s.
 Strung up "both" of my mates who work in "that branch of Cashcon" the other day, turns out they were both on holiday, when you did your smash and grab.
------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Carrol sound
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 9:07pm
|
After lab gruppen 6400 amp 30 amp fuse blown. Had to get two macro tech 5002 for vdosc subs. I couldn't believe the different. The subs came to life. So I don't agree with you guys that believe that swithing power supplies amps can produces the same amount of power as the capacitor driven amp. Because of the find we are changing the lab gruppen 6400 amplifiers on the subs with crown 5002. Sorry lab get rid of the vhf thing too. Really sucks. Do that and good amp for low,mids'highs. |
Posted By: Carrol sound
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 9:27pm
| People in a van get the lab. Real sound company's have lots of help loading in and loading out the equipment. so making your racks lighter makes no since to me. I rather have real power than an amp that has to recreate the power. Put a meter on the power when using a switching power supply amp and you'll see all kinds of voltage swings. Then put a meter on the capacitor driven amp. voltage swing is much less. Fact of the matter is capacitor driven amplifiers can recover from one wave to the other by storing there power in capacitors. |
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 10:47pm
|
you are talking utter rubbish. Firstly "capacitor driven amp"? what are you on? all amps (transformer driven and switch mode driven) have capacitors on the PSU output. You are right though, they do use the capacitors for bulkstorage, a transformer driven amp gets its capacitors refilled every 10ms, a switch mode driven amp gets its capacitors filled 1000 times in the same time ... so they have less work to do. Put a meter on a crap switch mode PSU and yes, it will have a lot of droop under load ... probably a lot more than average transformer driven amp. a GOOD switchmode however will have LESS droop/swing than even the best transformer driven amp. Don't confuse the fact that a Macrotech 5002 is a LOT better than Lab 6400 make you think that all the difference you hear is because one is transformer the other is switchmode, because its not. The 5002 is simply better, it has a better PSU than the Lab and more silicon and current capacity in the output stage than the Lab. Not because the Lab has a switchmode PSU, but because it doesnt have a very good switchmode PSU. Don't forget also that 2x MA5002VZ into 4R will give you 8kW ... a Lab 6400 will give you half that (if you use the same ratings, 6400W is its music power, they do about 4K when measured the same way as a macrotech,) so basically, you had twice as much power, thats one reason it sounded better ... and secondly, the MA5002VZ has got the balls to drive sub, ie the current capacity, the Lab hasn't got it in the same way. But you are quite wrong to put it down to being transformer and switch mode, because there are plenty of good switch mode amps out there that will kick ass, just like the MA5002 does. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 10:52pm
remrofsnart's rule ok even ferrite  ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: Carrol sound
Date Posted: 03 January 2010 at 11:46pm
| Was only looking for the correct fuse when I came across this forum and was curious about what people were saying about the comparison of the two amps in relationship of my finding when going from the lab to the macrotech, sorry for the confusion. All amps do have capacitors. I do agree that some swithing power supply amps do sound really good, but only when there tremendously over rated on there power specs. My personnel feeling are to use a very high quality swithing power supply amps for low,mid and high. I want my low mid and hi boxes to be clear. I don't mind the subs to be a little dirty. I looking for the long term power ratings, not short term or music Power ratings. |
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 04 January 2010 at 1:20am
|
Like I said, there are some good switchmode driven amps out there, that will kick ass on sub. You can also find transformer driven amps that are crap for sub ... Sub is where peak drive current capability starts to show the good from the bad, and where you need to really put the power in, so its often the one where you notice the limitations of the weaker amps. A good amp (whether transformer or switchmode) will always sound impressive when put up agaisnt its weaker brothers, and thats what you heard when you put a Lab 64 up agaisnt 8kW of Crown ... hardly a suprise. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: Carrol sound
Date Posted: 04 January 2010 at 2:08am
| Again that's not what most people on this forum say about the crown. Most post are downing the 5002, and saying lab gruppen(6400) has more power. Again my responce goes to those who disagree. Again over rating a switching amp is a must. I work in this environment with large pa's and generally switching amps sound cleaner on larger systems but lack that in the sub. companies that don't lack seem to use 5002 or the crest amps or really over power the subs with larger format switching amps or use more of them. I'm just going off what I hear and work with everyday. In regards to the lab amp there's only one thing I would do differently is give the option to bypass the VHF mode. I can see where helps protect the speakers especially compression drivers but the amp should never mute itself. |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 04 January 2010 at 8:59am
|
Velkom to de club , I think crown is doggy poo but thats just me light amp FFA, Matrix , powersoft and the New Voids, I want to be 70 and still carry me amps, anything more then 20kg doggy poo ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 04 January 2010 at 10:46am
|
Being light is quite handy. I think switchmode amps have had a bad reputation in the past, because its almost impossible to design a truly bad transformer based supply, but there are a few thousand ways to mess up the design of a switchmode supply and some of the early designs around didn't really do what they promised. As the designs have improved and adapted to the specialised needs of high power audio, i think the reputation will be restored. Ultimately, switch mode supplies have the ability to outperform transformer based supplies and it won;t be long before no one wants the old heavy lumps .... im pretty sure I wouldn't want a rack with 200kg of transformer amps in it. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: elad levi
Date Posted: 25 December 2010 at 1:38pm
|
hey,my name is elad levi from israel and i work with lab gruppen amps, the had wery clean and clear sound (fp series'& fp+ series) but crown 5000 sound much better and punchier for subs! sound componies in israel buy lab beacuse its have a low weight vs the crown 5000 but the dont ever tray the new crowns amplifiers (it 8000,macro tech 12000) that weight 12 kg only and have the same legendery sound. all the labs have low end for subs and very soft sound' some of the people likes it but not me. i think lab is sucks for subs and crown great for subs and the diffrent is beacuse the great damping factor of crown amps. it control in the subs more tight and more powerful! its get you more energy! you actually feel the curret that run out from the amplifier to the voice coil.. lab gruppen never Published the danping factor of their amps beacuse its sucks. for who that dont know what is damping factor and why it so importent- damping factor its the impedance at the amplifier output. the woofer is like a spring,when the woofer gets for exemple kick drum from the amp the woofer move and continus to move (like snear over ton) beacuse woofer speaker its like a spring, its send signal back to the amplifier, when the amplifier output impedance is low its "short" or reduce better the signal that back from the amp and control it better. the result is more sound at less moves of the speaker. like tight base drum. |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 25 December 2010 at 2:23pm
 [<:o)] ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 1:16am
|
I have a duff Camco V6 here and believe me this MA5000VZ I just repaired sounds a whole lot louder. Camco won't supply diagrams or parts and unless a miracle occurs it wont be making noise for a long time yet. ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: YoungBlood
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 1:57am
are there any switchmode amp rated at 2kwpc @ 4 ohm stereo that power subs "just like the MA5002 does" ------------- "chyll wynstan.." |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 8:32am
| pkn xe6000 will give you 2x 2.4K at 4 ohms continuous, with 2x3.7k peaks available, and trust me, it works on subs a treat. |
Posted By: Tony Wilkes
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 10:03am
|
Matrix XT6000 and the new bridged models when Andy releases them. Tony ------------- www.forteaudio.eu - BMS - db-Mark Processors - Lexon (SAE) |
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 10:35pm
yes, and then some ... although if you really want them to sound like an MA5002, you might have to find a way of dialing in some distortion ;) Early SMPS amps were pants .. the supplies simply did not have the peak current capability that the transformers had and SMPS got a bad name for driving sub ... theres still some crap SMPS amps about of course, but quite a few of the more recent models ahve it sussed and can now deliver bass just like their older transformer powered cousins. Also, the SMPS supplies typicall "sag" less under load, so you get better cone control and dynamics than you did with the transformer PSUs, but it comes down to design. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: Louder than loud
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 10:35pm
PKN does very well
|
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 10:37pm
yep, been hearing good things about the big ones (XT10,000 or whatever he decides to call it) Wish I could have got down to hear it at the ASS demo, by all accounts it was we received. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: Nick Sasquash
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 11:47pm
Crown MA5000vz every time....  But I hear good things bout both PKN & new Matrix... only time will tell....... ------------- https://operationsoundsystemrecords.bandcamp.com/ https://www.facebook.com/OperationSoundSystem/ |
Posted By: Louder than loud
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 11:50pm
|
PKN walks all over a VZ5000.... tonnes more power
|
Posted By: Nick Sasquash
Date Posted: 27 December 2010 at 12:09am
|
Yes Tim.... PKN are serious amps, top marks to designers I dont really need more power than the crowns give + i enjoy the sound & growl on subs (distortion, harmonics whatever)... but i like the power to weight ratio & value for money PKN offer.... + they apparently shook the place up when Ren played one pon his scoops @ rice & peas, however, people noted it played different to his usual bass sound. 2ohm (if needed) isnt a problem for the MA5000 + they hold value so well ... if PKN does the same in 15 years fair play to them. ------------- https://operationsoundsystemrecords.bandcamp.com/ https://www.facebook.com/OperationSoundSystem/ |
Posted By: Resonance
Date Posted: 27 December 2010 at 10:54pm
|
i did not read through all the replies but; had a few labs,had a lot of vz5ks (still have 3 and half ) i made the switch a while back from vz5ks to a more lighter amplifier. tried the labs first(that's why i had a few of them) they did notperform in demanding situations,(bass heavy, high tempo,high paced all day, all night hostile environment like the vz5ks. a few failed miserably. (btw i have used vz5ks since they came out and never had one fail totally on both channels! i had one where someone threw beer in the back of one side that was on fire, then turned it up on the same side that was burning to prevent the beer that was still inside from running down to the good side, and the party continued! the lab is a little cleaner but the crown, except for the weight is a much better all a round sub duty amplifier. i do look at specs, but experience has taught me that performance in the field is the best way to do a comparison. that is the reason why i have no labs, a few vz5ks a shit load of crest 9200s and qsc 9.0s! |
Posted By: sirck50
Date Posted: 06 June 2011 at 1:36am
|
Soooo... u guys are saying that the PKNC XD6000 or XE6000 outperforms the Crown MA5002VZ??..............in one (1u) rack space??
Has anyone actually compared them side to side?
If this is so, I think this will be my next investment. ------------- Hello!!! |
Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 06 June 2011 at 3:21pm
|
you would need to define "outperforms" ... but I suspect yes. Weight: big tick there, any one with a set of scales can check that. Sound quality: massive tick. The PKN are a decent sounding amp, although in my opinion there are still some better sounding ones for mid-tops, but .. the MA5002 is as rough as a badgers arse IMHO, they sound loud and "growly" on bass, but thats mainly because of the distortion. Power output: despite being rough as f*ck the 5002 does deliver the goods, but the PKN does too from what I hear, as do a many other lightweights. Put simply: the MA5002VZ is a solid lump, that does at least deliver what it is supposed to, however it is as a heavy as a dead donkey, and about as rough as they come. If you don't mind the weight, and are playing the sort of music that benefits from a little distortion, they can be a good choice if you can get them cheap enough. If you want clarity, lightweight and efficiency there are many other good modern examples, the PKN stuff being just one. ------------- My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker. Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ... |
Posted By: sirck50
Date Posted: 06 June 2011 at 6:44pm
|
Well my concerns are:
1) the power demand on low notes. From all that read so far, the crown delivers what it says power wise, but (again this is what I read) Lab Gruppens (and SOME other light wieght amps) dont really do this cause of various reasons mainly power supply design.
2) Dependability in really demanding situations. In my country (Trinidad) there is Carnival which is three days and we play Soca and Calypso music for over 12 hours each day (on a 40 feet trailer truck). So far here the crowns MA's seem to dominate the industry cause they seem to be the most durable and powerful. I am looking for a light wieght amp that can do this.
3) Weight factor. So far the PKN seems nice. ------------- Hello!!! |
Posted By: DjLeco
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 12:01pm
Very good explanation Peter!
If you want to see how performs Macrotech 5000VZ into dummy load, and severel frequency, look here, I have done alot of tests:
Macrotech (old school amp)
8 ohms testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hmtKZ0Tn8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hmtKZ0Tn8
2 ohms/30Hz testing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otOpGbYQeLE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otOpGbYQeLE
4 Ohm 100 1000 10000 20000 Hz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHu_9TXCDP0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHu_9TXCDP0
8 Ohm 100 1000 10000 20000 Hz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hmtKZ0Tn8" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4hmtKZ0Tn8
And New School Itech HD series, same power rated, but cannot sustain it, as you will see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meM3qu96dvM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meM3qu96dvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9otqUjSCwg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9otqUjSCwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgtboRv1Mf4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgtboRv1Mf4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZGcPCJANvk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZGcPCJANvk
and poor acting at 20Khz and 10Khz above too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX27yqarkCM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX27yqarkCM
------------- I'm A Stupid SMART Romanian... |
Posted By: specialjustin
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 12:36pm
Nice one DjLeco, i didn't really understand alot of what you said, what with your broad Norfolk accent an all  But what was going on in the last clip...what a racket that Itech makes, like an airplane taking off!!
|
Posted By: sirck50
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 12:43pm
|
So...who has experience with a lightweight amplifier that can compete, or better, surpass, the sheer muscle of a Crown MA5002VZ? And if so, can you state what it is, so others can give reviews too? ------------- Hello!!! |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 1:52pm
Powersoft K10 |
Posted By: SBC
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 1:55pm
+1 ------------- F.T.S.S. |
Posted By: DjLeco
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 2:48pm
|
@ specialjustin, what I said is the switching amplifier Itech, have poor performance above 1Khz, especially above 10Khz, alot of limmiting and distortion, compairing with the older Macrotech series. Also, Macrotech offer sustained output power, even in 2-4-8 ohms loaded, regarding Itech wich offer big BURST of mSeconds power, finally it can sustain 39Vrms on 4 ohms dummy load (around 400watts/4 ohms sustained, but big 2500watts peak burst power...)
What all of us must understand, is, on today market, they want quantity and profit, quality is on second or even third place, unfortunately...
Compare old school CROWN Macrotech 5000VZ output waveform at 20Khz, at any output power till clipping prag, with the CROWN Itech 5000HD, you'll see alot of distortion, wich the users with "cleanner ears", will tell, the sound is innacurate, no transparency, etc, they are right!!!
That's the difference between years, first they watched for quality and andurrance, today, I let you speak bout' it...
So for bass duty , if we cam use class D , class I or Class TD and classH 2-3-4 step. I personally recomend for mid hi range , purity of AB class.
Need more power, use bridged amp and that's it. ------------- I'm A Stupid SMART Romanian... |
Posted By: specialjustin
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:00pm
Please explain. As far as i can tell it's just alot louder but thinner, which fits my opinion of switching amps.
|
Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:00pm
|
Please tell me this is a JOKE!
------------- www.wedding-production.co.uk www.stage2sound.com |
Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:02pm
|
FFA6k,10k PowersoftK8,k10,k20 Will smash the crown
------------- www.wedding-production.co.uk www.stage2sound.com |
Posted By: specialjustin
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:06pm
In what respect? Don't say all because that isn't the case.
|
Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:08pm
|
ive had a FFA6k up againts a Crown before ok overall output is only a bit more SPL wise but the FFA wont send you home with a head ach! Ive used a K8 on several Jobs also and its got more grunt than the FFA. ------------- www.wedding-production.co.uk www.stage2sound.com |
Posted By: specialjustin
Date Posted: 07 June 2011 at 3:12pm
| So the Crown is or isn't being "smashed" ? |