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wave guide ( who developer ? )

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=65244
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 6:35pm
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Topic: wave guide ( who developer ? )
Posted By: TDA-Audio
Subject: wave guide ( who developer ? )
Date Posted: 26 March 2012 at 9:57am

who developer?  of this form to geometries? 


by tw-audio 2011-12 


by p-audio


by - ?




EV Gidra



turbo





from



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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/



Replies:
Posted By: lukam
Date Posted: 26 March 2012 at 12:44pm
I think it's the XG14 from 18sound in double. All speakers in the new line array from TWaudio vera36 are from18sound except the HF drivers are Faital HF144. There is a paper from 18sound on their waveguide there you should see the similarity.


Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 27 March 2012 at 12:11am

JBL used an elliptical waveguide in the 50s, I wouldn't want to bet they were the first either.



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djk


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 01 May 2012 at 11:21pm

\\\\\\\I think it's the XG14 from 18sound in double.\\\\\


yes!  only duoble. only plastic....



worx audio 








Norton WaveGuide



http://www.nortonaudio.de/?page_id=39&lang=en

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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 7:04am
old model 18 sound xg-14 (1.4")



new 1"






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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: wayward91
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 9:38am
Looks like a nice place to gather rain water.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 11:57am
What exactly is your question?

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 04 April 2013 at 8:32pm

who developer (producer)  these Wave Guide ?

1.5"



3x1" (this not martin)



2x1.5"


turbo?



-------------
horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: mykey-
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 5:45am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

What exactly is your question?
Can he copy it and will he get in to trouble doing so?

EmbarrassedLOL


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BbbBBRAAAAPppBBBBbgushhhhhhhhssshhhhhGrAbRAAAAAAPPPPPp = Dubstep


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 8:40am
I can't really imagine how you would get rich of copying those waveguides. I guess it would take quite an investment in molds etc.


Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 8:43am
Looking at these different waveguides realy makes you realise the eegant simplicity of the dosc waveguide, perhaps only nexos parabolic reflector comes even close in logic.

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They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 9:58am
they look like they should be extruding multi-coloured striped icing on biscuits


Posted By: mykey-
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 11:09am
Originally posted by thepersonunknown thepersonunknown wrote:

Looking at these different waveguides realy makes you realise the eegant simplicity of the dosc waveguide, perhaps only nexos parabolic reflector comes even close in logic.
Just guiding waves to exit all at the same time


-------------
BbbBBRAAAAPppBBBBbgushhhhhhhhssshhhhhGrAbRAAAAAAPPPPPp = Dubstep


Posted By: mykey-
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 11:10am
Originally posted by all bass all bass wrote:

I can't really imagine how you would get rich of copying those waveguides. I guess it would take quite an investment in molds etc.
Not about getting rich. TDA won't have to pay top $ for the originals if he can make them himself.Ouch


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BbbBBRAAAAPppBBBBbgushhhhhhhhssshhhhhGrAbRAAAAAAPPPPPp = Dubstep


Posted By: kevinmcdonough
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by thepersonunknown thepersonunknown wrote:

Looking at these different waveguides realy makes you realise the eegant simplicity of the dosc waveguide, perhaps only nexos parabolic reflector comes even close in logic.


Martin are also very simple, they've avoided all the maze like path length correction stuff in their new MLA systems....




Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 12:13pm
What Martin does is quite sufficient. All this cylindrical wave BS is just that, a big marketing mumbo jumbo. 
It all applies only at a flat line array. Once you start curving it, it all goes south.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

What Martin does is quite sufficient. All this cylindrical wave BS is just that, a big marketing mumbo jumbo. 
It all applies only at a flat line array. Once you start curving it, it all goes south.


+1


Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by mykey- mykey- wrote:

Originally posted by thepersonunknown thepersonunknown wrote:

Looking at these different waveguides realy makes you realise the eegant simplicity of the dosc waveguide, perhaps only nexos parabolic reflector comes even close in logic.
Just guiding waves to exit all at the same time


yea thats the goal, but bending them round and round in only 2 dimentions when the waves originate in 3 is not realy the best is it

have you seen inside a dosc waveguide?


-------------
They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:45pm

this sample with china for my test


Quote Martin are also very simple, they've avoided all the maze like path length correction stuff in their new MLA systems....



this WG in my pic -not martin ..
 
Mykey - special for you
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-GIMWvwkFE" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-GIMWvwkFE
 

this copies! (is made in china ) not original

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BS886YMhA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BS886YMhA
 


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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:49pm

who developer (manufacture)  on photo in first post ? (not martin)



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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:55pm

for indonesian farange :)

(China (Guangzhou) International Expo on Pro Sound and Light) - foto
 
http://photo.qip.ru/users/tda-audio/200672901/" rel="nofollow - http://photo.qip.ru/users/tda-audio/200672901/


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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:56pm
That looks like J.C Van Damme´s son. Wouldn´t mess with him!  Shocked




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Goodvibetribe
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

who developer (manufacture)  on photo in first post ? (not martin)

 
You mean 'who develops these'? or who is the developer?
 
What tests are these that your conducting?


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George c - www.gorilla-audio.co.uk facebook.com/gorillaaudiohire


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 3:04pm
Nice to see some Ohm horns in those pics as well. Or, not really... Lucky you aren't western company because you would be sued.

But on the other hand, western company wouldn't copy those in the first place.


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 3:08pm
You mean 'who develops these'? or who is the developer?
-

who has developed ? who first used?  whose patent?



-------------
horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: Goodvibetribe
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

You mean 'who develops these'? or who is the developer?
-

who has developed ? who first used?  whose patent?

 
So basically yeah, You are asking if you'll get into any trouble if you copy them....
Like people have mentioned they are for making sure all the signal leaves the flare at the same time. Now you know the principle, surly with the use of a ruler and maybe some basic maths you can just design your own? I'm no designer myself but it doesn't sound difficult.


-------------
George c - www.gorilla-audio.co.uk facebook.com/gorillaaudiohire


Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 05 April 2013 at 10:26pm
If you mean "who was the first person to use this idea"... well it's really just a development of the phasing plug, which has been used in compression drivers since the 1920's. Usually credited to the design team at Bell Labs.


Posted By: thepersonunknown
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 2:15am
is the one in the turbo aspects an actual path lengh corrector, or just a sort of phase plug - come - multicelular wave guide?

i dont see a great advantage to having such exact pathlenght correction in the (pointsource) horn itself, as long as the dispersion is controled and constant across the bandwidth. in the throaght chamber and compression chamber, of course the pathlenght correction is important, but in the horn proper, i dont realy see much need for the waves to be totaly 'flat' as they leave the horn mouth.

if anyone has any rough sketches (obviously not plans or anything of the like) of what goes on from the diafram, through the compression chamber of the comp driver, through the exit of the comp and then through the throaght 'chamber' and into the honey comb horn/wave guide they use, i would love to see it. i do however, expect something less than impressive. the aspect sounds good, i like it, but i realy think its more made to loook revoloutionary than to actualy be so.

i would be really impressed to learn that the multy celular design of the horn is constant and fluid right back through the throaght and into the comp chamber, and keep that fluid transition right back to the actual diafram of the driver, and is sphericl qualities. i kinda doubt it does, but im interested to know how anal (or not) they have been with integrating the honeycomb/multi cell format to the radial format i suspect is used inside the comp driver.

for thoes who dont know, if you scroll down on this( http://www.burton-manor.co.uk/Audio/LAthoughts.htm ) web page (is this site someone from heres doing by the way?) you can see a 3d rendition of the 'phase plug' inside the waveguide of the dosc. its the one which looks kinda like the phase plug in a slot tweeter

i realy think these guys have patented the best way to create a smooth transition from a semi spherical (3 dimentional) wavefront of the comp driver to a flat wavefront at the mouth of the waveguide (cilyndrical, so called although for me this devinition is not the best word, as in the reality of the theory the wavefront is more like a 2 dimentional triangle which can be made 3 dimentional and curved by adding more elements and curving the array, not like a cylinder at all in my books, as a cylinder expands in both the horizontal and vertical axis, which is what a good pointsource realy does).

as the curves used in the dosc to create an even path length are not so sharp, it also allows the total cross sectional area of the waveguisde to expand in a more fluid horn like way, withought mashing the higher frequencies in the way i believe some waveguides do (in particular some i am seeing here) looking at some of them makes me feel that i understand y some line arrays sound so crap on the top end.

the dosc waveguide is the only one ive realy seen which makes a fluid transition from that spherical 3 dimentional expansion (forwards, verticaly and horizontaly) to a 'flat/cylindrical' radiation which radiates out of the waveguide and into the horn throaght.

perhaps the parabolic reflector used by nexo is another example, but ive herd it sound crap. probably missuse, which is a bit more controled with the aparent ellietism of the whole L acoustics v dosc partiner system (does that still exist?) and their policies of insisting on selling only complete rigs (or at least thas how it was when i was involved in the instalation and distribution of end user (not rental company) systems. and the rental systems we toured were completly standardised by l acoustics. very little flexability was given to the company who wanted to have the dosc range in their inventory.

the company i worked for used crown ma5002vz amps, as the investment in literaly 100s of lab rebadged amps was a sticking point in the negociations (not to mention the long lasting connections/agrements with harman that said company had), but even the bloody racks they were mounted in were standardised l acoustics racks (flyable, but fitting 4 ma5002vz). obviously the idea was to have lightweight lab grupens in me cos if one of these racks tipped over u needed a bloody forklift to get it on its wheels). presets were from l acoustics, and any mention of touching them was blaphemy, and probably the last action u would have done for that particular company or any other v dosc partiner.

realy, the only system ive seen treated with near the same usage quality control was the clair I4. i think the guy who sits infront of the doomsday device's button had more freedom of usage with the equipment he was responsible for.

at the time to be installing them we had do be qualified as either qvt or qve, which in the case of thre qvt cert (the lower level one, which i did), was just a bollox basic course which taught u how to design the best deployment with the then crude software and then deply the rig as in the predictions, all mixed up with a big dose of marketing at a slightly more technical level

this is all very academic, and perhaps detatched from the real world, and martin audios aproach of not being so anal about pathlengh correction, therefore having the benifit of not bending the wave round and round, which at very high frequencies cant be good. its clear in this example that in this real world, a bit of flexibility with the theory of the flat wave is important, and a totaly flat wavefront is not nesissarlily going to mean a good sounding waveguide and array.

there has been interesting talk here about the negative deforming effects caused by tight throaghts on cd horns among some of the more learned guys (these threads have been followed with great interest by folks like myself although i, and probably more of us stay silent, but would like to contribute in the case of being in the know enough to share something which could help to keep the tradition of great discussion of sp alive)

i think that similar things must be happening in some of the waveguides we can see in the pictures. very few of them impress my logic at all, although perhaps im missing the point somewhere (although i think the number of crap sounding linearrays do back up my idea that something is not right)

anyway, i got a bit sidetracked there, but its good to show a bit of encouragement to folks who keep this place alive, but i think this sort of clear deformation comes at a cost. thats a fact some here can actualy calculate, and others can easily follow.

thats my point of bringing up the shape of the dosc, compared to others. (and this is what i was getting at when i asked u if you had seen the dosc wave guide mykye), didnt want to sound like a smart arse, and i have no doubt that if i can see a strenght or flaw in a design, then it should be as clear as cristal to you.

the original marketing spin with the vdosc was the fact that it created a flat wavefront and therefore justified the fact that it was a 'line array', and only things which create totaly flat high frequency wavefronts can be marketed as a line array. it was successful and it set a trend.

if the way i take this is true, the pathlenght corrective properties have become important beyond their real value, and designers will create a waveguide which completly deforms the waves and makes it almost imposible for the 'horn' as a whole (from mouth to diafram) to be a smooth path for which the waves to travel through coherently. its a simple rule of thumb for an uneducated designer like myself that its not a good idea to bend a horn more than 90 degrees unless u must, and some of these waveguides are bending the waves 180 degrees in 2 dimentions. waves which originaly are 3 dimentional and very short.

obviously the dosc waveguide cant be coppied (legaly/morally/other), but for me, the idea that a comp diver radiates cylindricaly, and needs to be reshapen smoothly should be of the same importance as the relative 'need' for the waves to exit the horn with an exactly flat shape (unless both can be done well at the same time, as surely they have the same importance). this, to my less than expert eye, allows the waveguide section of the horn to be just that: a fluid expansion, rather than just some narrow as hell chanels of a similar length which are forced to limit expansion so as to keep the cross section down and not act as a low pass filter.

a crap sounding hf section will sound crap, and when it couple cylindricaly with other crap sounding hf sections, u end up with a crap sounding cylindrical wavefront

perhaps the fact that companies who put a 'line array' on the market, which dodnt have some patent which creates a flat wavefront, would be shot down so fast that it becomes more important to tick this marketing box rather than make a horn (including its waveguidance characteristics) which sounds good.

perhaps the fact that the, radiating surface in the driver, the waveguide and the horn on the end of it are often not considered a single fluid piece is one of the problems.

or, perhaps im just ranting, with just enough knowledge to create my own misconceptions and post them for all to see. this is no problem to me, as i might just get it wrong enough to be corrected and learn something having some more knowledge posted here for all who have a passion to understand and improve (all be it only in theory, as i dont think many of us have whats needed at our disposal to realy create one of these complex and precise objects) 

but all the same, i would love this thread to develop into a really good one, as i think we have gotten to the point here were we can realy talk about line array withought  getting silly about it and i do think its an interesting topic which each day moves more and more into the diy worldSmile

anyway, rant over

cheers
dave


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They keep telling me life is short, but its the longest thing ive ever done!!!


Posted By: grec
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 5:29am
Nope!

I thing what TDA really wants to know is how those WG works and what principle are  those bents based on. That's why he asked for patents.
Nobody will copy those Chinese WG, you will never make it even close to cost that Chinese can.
Especially in Russia.
Everything is more expensive there - above 30-50% more then in US market.
If he wants it, he'll buy a samples test them and used them. Pretty simple.
But what he saying on Youtube is -" Look on that cheap Chinese junk!"

By the way, for years I never saw that Mike share any plans here. 
Or even advice for other builders (with rare exception)
All I saw was the criticism of other people work and declaring of advantages for his own speakers.

my 2 cents



Posted By: mykey-
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 6:42am
I've put quite a few plans up for free but took them down again. Because people like TDA manufacture the designs and sell them commercially . I wonder how many WSX he has sold to date.


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BbbBBRAAAAPppBBBBbgushhhhhhhhssshhhhhGrAbRAAAAAAPPPPPp = Dubstep


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 7:08am

Paci - Nice to see some Ohm horns in those pics as well. Or, not really... Lucky you aren't western company because you would be sued.

 

against all china manufacture ?  (wg -made in china)

))))))))))))))
 
 

I've put quite a few plans up for free but took them down again. Because people like TDA manufacture the designs and sell them commercially . I wonder how many WSX he has sold to date.

 
indonesian farange  -

why did not want is met with me in indonesia -have discussed.. -and on secret has said how much are made

 

 



-------------
horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: tda-audio_2
Date Posted: 02 May 2014 at 12:00pm

who developer this WG ? 




Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 02 May 2014 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

 
indonesian farange  -

and on secret has said how much are madewhy did not want is met with me in indonesia -have discussed.. -

 

because i'm in London


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 03 May 2014 at 12:47am
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

for indonesian farange :)


(China (Guangzhou) International Expo on Pro Sound and Light) - foto

 

<a href="http://photo.qip.ru/users/tda-audio/200672901/" rel="nofollow">http://photo.qip.ru/users/tda-audio/200672901/</A>

Some nice new original designs on that show. Must be the creme de la creme of loudspeaker R&D showing of their work.







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