ultimate reflex for sub
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Ported Enclosures
Forum Description: Post all your reflex and bandpass and 'other' boxes with holes in stuff here...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=86757
Printed Date: 23 April 2024 at 11:52pm
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Topic: ultimate reflex for sub
Posted By: MRT
Subject: ultimate reflex for sub
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 2:07pm
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I've been reading from the forum about the differences between reflex and scoop designs for sub bass. Seems to be a lot of opinions, but I guess more or less everyone agrees that scoop is a more efficient way to produce high spl with less amp power, but reflex can go deeper. So my question is, what would be the ultimate reflex subbass box and driver combo compared to 4 superscoops if the amount of drivers and power needed is not a problem. Any opinions?
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Replies:
Posted By: sn95
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 3:22pm
| ×2 the number of scoop,s |
Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 4:24pm
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MRT wrote:Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 5:20pm
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I've done a 2x18 reflex which is the same size as a Scoop, or my Scoop anyway, It's a 4 ohm cab so it does perform differently, but it will leave the Scoop standing when it comes to close up low end. No big deal here because you can tune the Reflex cab, whereas you can't really tune a Scoop, apart from moving bits around, but that's not really tuning in the true sense of the word.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: MRT
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 8:47pm
| So are you saying that if I have 4 superscoops loaded with PD 1850's and 8 reflex boxes with the same driver, with right tuning I get at least the same spl with reflex compared to the scoops but the reflex goes deeper and doesnt have a dip in the frequency response? |
Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 9:06pm
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Don't worry about the dip in the frequency because you won't cross them that high |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 9:53pm
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Get some of my double 18s and piss all over scoops :-) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 9:54pm
i used to run 4 18" reflex sound nice and go deep but lack the spl at a distance another sound used to run a pair of g subs same story switched over to a pair supers not as deep as reflex but so much more pressure and i prefer the sound of a scoop  ------------- feel the vibes !!! "Who Feels it Knows it" Strong like Lion |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:02pm
1850 is just horrible in a reflex box. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:06pm
 ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:44pm
Or 4 2x18's the same size as the Scoop. and regarding what we all term as Throw, most Gigs don't require masses of projection. You'll be surprised ( or maybe not) at how far low frequency can project with power.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:49pm
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This is the cab I was referring to earlier, made out of 1" Birch 2" baffle etc. https://imageshack.com/i/ndar0rj" rel="nofollow">
------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: sn95
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:52pm
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:56pm
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While reflex are the definite choice for many gigs/venues, 4x decent scoops will cover 400-500 people with effortless sub. Many such venues will only have 13A plugs, and may struggle to provide power for 8x 18s to do the same job, if bass heavy material is played. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: MRT
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 11:07pm
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Yes thats what I thought, that it doesn't work like that. I guess the original question was if some of you would have opinions on the best way to produce sub bass with reflex design equivalent of spl produced by for example 4 super scoops with PD 1850's. To get the same pressure but reflex sound quality.
I guess this design is not available??? Could you tell a bit more, drivers, tuning freq, etc.? What is the difference in having double 18" box instead 2 x 18" boxes? I know this has been discussed here before but didn't really find an answer, just that its not a big difference.
This is a good and practical point. Many thanks for all your answers!
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 11:35pm
Lev, if you do gigs on 13A plugs then that is a pure amateur gigs then. I can not think of any venue here that does not have at least 3phase 32amp socket available. With 64A being a standard norm. So if the power is not a limiting thing, then surely there are double 18s that will go lower and louder then a super scoop loaded with a PD1850. Which i think was the original question. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 11:46pm
Except Macedonia is not the UK, so what you have there is irrelevant...  Have "personally" never been impressed by 1850 in Superscoop. V18 in Superscoop, or 1850 in ASS scoop, different ball game. There are plenty of venues in UK, that hold 1k+ people, and only 13A mains plugs are available, unless people attempt to tail into "kitchen" supplies. That's why to many here, "efficiency" is key.  ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: TmanG
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 11:46pm
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What kind of music do you want to play? Scoops have a unique scoopy sound (colouration) to them when they're holding long bass notes which some people like. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 11:50pm
IMHO, No point comparing Scoops to reflex cabs, people have personal choices and preferences. Mates like to use reflex for live gigs, and Scoops for 400+ people Reggae gigs. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:03am
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"There are plenty of venues in UK, that hold 1k+ people, and only 13A
mains plugs are available, unless people attempt to tail into "kitchen"
supplies.'' Why???  What about lights?? |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:19am
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What lights? LOL ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:29am
Gig last year that used 4x of my Scoops. Stone Love playing on Mitchigan Vibes set, 6x Scoops in Total.  Still approx 2.5k people still there at 05:00hrs+.  All off 2x 13A plugs, as no 3ph or 32A available.. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:30am
There is no need for this design to be available as it's only a Reflex cab, although I suppose that if you don't have the wherewithal to tune, then it might be difficult. From memory, I believe the low end was in the high 20's at -3db, the speakers are B and C 18TBX100's, The cab was around 380L. 1w1m would have been around 100db. What you have to remember is that a cab that goes lower than a scoop will go further than you might calculate. Just think how, at a distance, you will always hear the lowest frequencies over the higher ones. It's just down to the longer wavelengths being produced. I think from experience, that 2 speakers in a non separated box sound better. Others might disagree, but I think there is always an advantage with common damping that two speakers provide when working in the same cab. I would never do this in a mid cab due to the possibility of standing waves, which is what you don't get in a Low Frequency cab. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:38am
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Lev, that venue has to have a main fuse box where you can connect your power cable directly to the main rods bypassing any in house fuse and use your own power distro with fuses. But that is how pro people do the stuff. You wouldn't know any of that. Using only two 13Amp sockets is seriously limiting the real capability of your system. That is 26 amps total. Meaning less then 6KW for the entire system. That is about what i push in one of my subs :-)
------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:44am
Would have thought "pro" like you would know, 2x fused UK 13A plugs will easily allow 32A peaks to the system. In UK, in many venues you aren't allowed near fuse/junction box. You can use supply in main gig area, and that's that. So if "you" turn up with your 16x 2kw subs, each loaded with 18" drivers of 1.5% reference efficiency, you may be disappointed, and definitely not booked again. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:53am
It is avery good thing to be flexible with equipment and find smart solutions to issues like these but for me that has its limits.I've been to gigs which were not taking place in organized venues or clubs, but in parkings or schools. When the client had demands for gear and the power wasn't enough his first reaction was ''ok we can reduce the amount of speakers-amps.''But the dj's had different opinion when people came.Red leds on mixers was their first reaction. My rule is when power is not enough either demand a proper generator or cancel the job.For me it is not worth ending up with fried coils cause instead of 500 people 1000+ showed up and the system wasnt enough. I wish i could here those 6 scoops in that room for 2.5k people though.Maybe I'm a little exaggerated.. |
Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:58am
Youre not allowed to touch their junction box but their electrician guy can.There must be a guy like this right?Straight to their main 3phase fuse to your 3 phase distro and thats it. |
Posted By: sn95
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:59am
| Tony I can clearly understand the low extension of the BR over the scoop but at 100 Db 1w1m looks low compared to the graphs for scoops .BTW I have never seen one for the RX18 but I,m assuming it's about 105/106 Db ? |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:08am
Some gigs, there is 3ph available, and nice groups of 32A/63A 1ph Ceeforms. And some gigs, all you have are 13A sockets, building owner/promoter won't provide or allow electrician to tail into fuse box. This is why so many on this forum have Kelsey PD7/32s, and have input tails for either 13A plugs, or to 32A connectors. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:11am
That is so wrong that i dont even know where to start explaining. The reference efficiency has nothing to do with how a driver will produce the low notes. I have noticed your insisting on the ref number earlier, and that only proves how little you actually know about loudspeaker boxes. My 2KW subs are more like 7KW programe power (that is the power i recommend for them to get best results out of the box) with 101db sesitivity. f3 is 32Hz and f10 is 26hz. You forget that i also have a backloaded 21inch subs in my fleet that you can essentially call a scoop. The 218 box is pissing all over that box. So dont speak about something that you have no experience with. Ok? Once you are able to put your hand on my 1.5% ferr driver, you will forget anything else. It is something out of this world. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:11am
 had no problems usin reflex now i am usin scoops have people complaining from the houses in front and behind the venue police have been on the phone to the landlord twice in the same nite all the tables get covered in dust from the high ceilings lost screws out of me laptop the list goes on ..... i will stick with my scoops !!! ------------- feel the vibes !!! "Who Feels it Knows it" Strong like Lion |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:12am
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Yes, that's about right, but it's all about sound for some people and loudness for others. The title of this thread is Ultimate reflex for Sub. In some rooms 4 2x18 subs might be too much or uncontrollable so what would be the point of any more. Efficiency is important, but power is also cheap, which makes efficiency less important now than years ago. I was only stating a fact about a Reflex cab 2x18 going lower than a Scoop. Don't forget, if there is a limit to how low a Scoop will naturally go, it won't matter how efficient the Scoop is. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:14am
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For places with no real power we provide generators. I can rent a 40KW generator for 40 eur per day plus the diesel fuel. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:16am
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Exactly Tony. A good reflex will have like 10db more at 35hz then any scoop. That is hell of a difference in the whole experience. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:25am
Pretty much agree with all of that. However, obviously, when dealing with venues of limited power supply (just 32A ring main with 13A sockets), systems with piles of 2x18s are more susceptible to tripping mains breakers. Scoops won't match 2x18 reflex for warmth and flat response downto 32hz, but small numbers of them, can fill large venues with huge amounts of 40hz, which is perfectly acceptable for many music types. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: sn95
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:25am
Maybe it's time for some 2x18,s 
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Posted By: SebP
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:44am
or maybe something between scoop and reflex? |
Posted By: sn95
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:09am
| A reflex with a big port |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:12am
That is the same driver we use :-) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 7:31am
So wrong. See, i totally get your point using only 4 bins with 4 x drivers and taking everything out from them with full power from the amp. Nice and small to carry around making it cost effective. However, let's take Marjan's 218 as a sample and your quantity of 16. 1 bin gives 101 dB with 1W down to 35Hz. 2 bins give 107 dB with 1W into each 4 bins give 113 dB with 1W into each 8 bins give 119 dB with 1W into each 16 bins give 125dB with 1W into each. So that's 125dB with only 16W input power. How's that for efficiency? Yes, way much larger system and requires a lorry to move it around, but it's another approach to get big SPL with little input power. Change that to 100W into each, 1.6kW in total and you have 145 dB... No power compression at all since the drivers are only getting a fraction of the power they can handle. And once again, high efficiency means less subbass. They are opposite on the laws of physics. |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 8:33am
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Lev mentions efficiency quite a bit regarding Bass speakers, but in my view, you have to know what the figures refer to. Most bass speakers, if not all derive a figure using a range that is outside of their practical use. In my own case, I have been able to use a speaker that is only half as efficient as my previous one according the published figures. When these different speakers were being AB tested, the reason I couldn't tell the difference was because over the range up to 100 hz, they are basically the same regarding output, plus I can use more power, or keep the increased Headroom. The best thing to do if there are any doubts about these matters, is to try and overlay the plots over the required Range, and see how close the performance is from one to another. Even if there are differences, it won't represent the difference in Sensitivity that you see in print. That's it for me, off to work.. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: BASSHORSE
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 8:43am
i do like the sound of reflex boxs though,.last time i went up town ther was 4 martin 218 replex's with 3 arc's on top ov each stack,.not the biggest of rooms but not the smallest either,.but the sound was rolling,.plenty low end punch & power,.but like its been said a zillion times,.personal prefrance or what the customers want,..for me it's mini scoop all the way,,you can make them sound tight like a replex or smooth like a scoop, to my ears anyway  & for the record ive had 4 1850 loaded supers,,& they sound super sllowww compared to the mini's!.
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Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:30pm
Dosent quite work like that though does is Pasi? You only gain 3dB in sensitivity and efficiency when doubleing the number of cabinets, not 6dB, and only up to a point, you cant go on increasing efficiency for ever. All cabinets will reach a plateau in efficiency, which will be lower for reflex than it will for horns. You also gain 3dB in max output is from doubleing the power input, but this is not an increase in efficiency. Your never going to get 125dB @ 1W from a stack of reflex cabs, that would be 1000% efficient in half space, 112dB is 50% efficient in half space and is about as good as your going to get with horns, it will be lower than that with reflex, you can gain sensitivity from directivity and reduction in radiation plane, but its not a gain in efficiency, you are just directing the energy in one direction, not radiating more power. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:34pm
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Just read read your post and saw you said 125dB with 16W, not 1W, sorry, my mistake, that would still equate to 113dB sensitivity which is not really achievable with reflex. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:20pm
You got too hung up to the word efficiency and missed the point. One box will always remain as 101dB sensitivity, but when you double the radiating area you get 3dB more SPL with same input power and when you double the input power you get 3dB again. So if one box gives you 101 on 1W, 2 boxes, 0.5W each would give 104. 1W into each gives you 107. And so on. It's not in reality full 6dB, it's closer to 5.5 or so. Don't remember anymore but i've measured this when running big systems and it does stack up in reality. Original point was that with the amount of cabinets you can compensate against amp power and you don't need massive input power or mains power to achieve high SPLs. Which in my view is also efficient, little power into many bins giving lot's of SPL. But like i also stated, needs larger transportation obviously which is the drawback. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:21pm
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Its the same with all cabinets though, not just reflex, i under stand your point and aggree, ive run large stacks of HD15s and got fairly high spl even though there only loaded with kappaLF and given 300W max, i do think drivers with a stronger motor would perform better and have a higher ultimate sensitivity though as they would deal with the high loading of large arrays better. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:24pm
Yes, of course it's not limited to reflex only, but originally it was just a response to Lev claiming what he claimed. I just proved the point that he is actually wrong on this case. Strong motor and low qts equals less low end, so it's a trade off again. Elliot Thompson has been saying this for long time, if you want to get low low with minimum effort, don't use the drivers with high electrical damping. |
Posted By: MRT
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 11:24am
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This is really interesting discussion going on here, I've been learning a lot of new things. Just to get back to the original question, I was just wondering if some of the more experienced people on the board would have any personal preferences on producing the best and deepest low end with reflex boxes, what would be the ultimate driver and box design to suit it to produce high spl around 30-70 hz. Thanks Tony for your input on your boxes. And this might be a bit stupid question but when designing a reflex box for the previously mentioned frequency range, would it be more efficient if there would be a peak in 30-80 hz obtained in the box design when the box is only meant to play those frequencies and there would be dedicated boxes for bass above that frequency range? Just thinking about different options for a reggae soundsystem based on reflex instead of scoops.
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 11:34am
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BMS 18N862 would be my choice for going deep. 550lit box with two of those will have f3 of 27Hz. You would not like the price :-) 30-80hz is too wide to make such a big peak. Chose either 30 or 80. Can not have both in a reflex. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 12:15pm
hybrid reflex/scoop also has a AC behind the driver |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 12:44pm
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AC? Air Conditioned? :-) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: bcs
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 1:47pm
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Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 7:50pm
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Posted By: cassiya
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 8:51pm
what about this one? ------------- Just because you got more boxes that don't make you a man.... |
Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 8:53pm
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looks like a BPH6 with silly small port to me |
Posted By: cassiya
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 8:56pm
I had to crop the pic down.. so only showing top half.. I call it a scoop hybrid.. why is the port silly and small? ------------- Just because you got more boxes that don't make you a man.... |
Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 9:04pm
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did not want to offend you!!! i just assumed the ported backchamber is to add a little bit to the low end, and the port looks really small for that purpose on the picture. but if it works the way it should, everything is fine! |
Posted By: cassiya
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 9:21pm
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That's cool bro. I spent hours trying different port sizes. You're right. This was too small. Its now more then double that size.the problem is.. different drivers need different size port. ------------- Just because you got more boxes that don't make you a man.... |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 11:21pm
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Didnt celestion have a simliar type scoop many years ago... ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 11:48pm
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Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 11:50pm
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Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 12:18am
Exactly Low Low with minimum effort would equate to what is shown below...  Don't expect to get such as response with high electrical damping drivers. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: volcano
Date Posted: 14 September 2016 at 10:03pm
Sorry to revive this, but I'm planning to build subs with a single BMS 18N862 in a 200L cabinet tuned to 30Hz, they will be crossed over at 100Hz. Are you saying that this speaker tuned to 30Hz will give a bad respons in the upper 70-100Hz range? |
Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 15 September 2016 at 12:54pm
He was refering specifically to this request, about creating a hump in the response over a relatively broad range of frequencies:
With a vented box, you can't really make such a broad hump, but it should sound fine if you tune for a flat response over the 30-100Hz range. HTH, David.
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