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what is the story with patents and hiring speakers

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Topic: what is the story with patents and hiring speakers
Posted By: Abe The Babe
Subject: what is the story with patents and hiring speakers
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 12:29am
Over the last while I've seen a few patented speaker inventions that I'd like to incorporate into my own speakers. They aren't for sale but I'd like to know where I'd stand with modifying speakers for installs and the speakers I hire out.



Replies:
Posted By: woody2
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 12:42am
i remember turbosound getting a court order then using sledgehammers and chainsaws in the past-if that helpsLOL


Posted By: Abe The Babe
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 2:19am
that was for speakers that were copies. they were being sold as turbo copies also. I want to use a refractive sound plug in the speakers I own.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 6:18am
I doubt you would have much problems with a personal pa setup, but if there is a patent issue and you are in production with lots of units being sold, I think more attention would be paid. Just gut instinct though.


Posted By: krazyneil
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 9:49am
if this is somthing just for your own use then you will fine
patents are used to stop other manufacturers using said technology theve developed in there commercial designs and even if they found out you have used it for yourself it would not be viable for them to do anything about it so you will be fine


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GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT !!!!!


Posted By: woody2
Date Posted: 01 June 2015 at 1:33am
Originally posted by Abe The Babe Abe The Babe wrote:

that was for speakers that were copies. they were being sold as turbo copies also. I want to use a refractive sound plug in the speakers I own.


it was hire stockLOL you asked the question.....


Posted By: kevinmcdonough
Date Posted: 01 June 2015 at 9:38am
hey

I think you'd be fine on a small run.  If you're just making a few cabs for your own use or for a small install or two, who's gonna know?  Some random pub manager isn't really going to start opening up your cabs to see why the sound better than others, and even if they did they wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway.  To anyone who looks at your speakers its just a box that makes a pleasing noise.

Really it would only be if you had a huge following and started to make waves as a well known manufacturer that people might start looking into things in more detail, or if you started producing advertising and things naming the technology or claiming it to be yours that eyebrows may be raised. 

k


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 01 June 2015 at 10:41am
It's kind of a grey area I reckon.

You almost certainly will get away with it but you also need to think it through and make your own personal moral decision, the same as you would if deciding to download a pirated album or DVD.

In moral terms, copying a protected speaker design and manufacturing it for profit - even if only a very minor profit through renting it out - is basically the same as running a cinema where people pay an entrance fee to watch films but the films you screen were downloaded. Or a DJ doing paid gigs with music they downloaded from the Internet.

If you made an effort to track down the inventor and told them what you planned to do, you never know they might be okay with it. But then again they might want to come round your house with chainsaws :P

Personally I think hoarding of intellectual property is a moral grey area in it's own right so that's a good balancing position!


Posted By: Abe The Babe
Date Posted: 01 June 2015 at 11:12pm
"patent (/ˈpætənt/ or /ˈpeɪtənt/) is a set of exclusive rights granted by a sovereign state to an inventor or assignee for a limited period of time in exchange for detailed public disclosure of an invention."

I'd say a patent means, protection of commercial exclusivity for a period in exchange for not hoarding the intellectual property. 


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 01 June 2015 at 11:40pm
Firstly, you're unlikely to be able to recreate the original exactly, so it will be a variation on the theme.  Also will it be obvious to anyone looking at the cabs that you've used these particular techniques?

If it's only a few cabs and you're not advertising the fact that you're using the technology, I doubt it'll be an issue.


Posted By: moyano
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 8:36pm
Isn't a USB a copy of a f1 218 ?? Nobody seems to care about that. What about the hundreds of turbosound copies for sale on second hand market ?

Does it matter if there an old model ??


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 11:47pm
No, a USB is not a copy of an F218


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 02 June 2015 at 11:50pm
if its an active patent then no,
 
if its a patent that has expired, then I cant see any harm.
 
@moyano the usb shares some similarities but no its not an f218 copy... true there are a lot of clone copy cabs out there, is this right...
in some cases I cant see a problem like discontinued designs were the patent has now expired...
But defo its not right to copy production cabs or cabs covered by a patent in date.


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https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 03 June 2015 at 12:30pm
Ask them,  Patents should not really be there to stop others from doing things, certainly if there not in competition with the patent holder, there there to stop people ripping off ideas and profiting from others research without paying there dues.  If you ask and offer a small sum they might be quite open, and respectful of the fact you asked rather than just did it anyway.  
  


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: S&P
Date Posted: 05 October 2015 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Abe The Babe Abe The Babe wrote:

Over the last while I've seen a few patented speaker inventions that I'd like to incorporate into my own speakers. They aren't for sale but I'd like to know where I'd stand with modifying speakers for installs and the speakers I hire out.
 
There's no ambiguity here.  You would be 100% in the wrong, legally, morally and by what ever other measure, unless you get authorisation from the current patent holder.  What you're asking is would I get away with it?  I guess you probably would whilst you're mot manufacturing them, but personally I would hope the patent holder found out and came after you.  It would be IP theft, plain and simple.  And theft is theft in my book regardless of whether you nick my telly or nick my patent (and I hold a few by the way). 


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Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/


Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 07 October 2015 at 6:03pm
^Pah!

Go for it dude, it sounds like its not for production anyway and not going to effect the patent holder with loss of sales.


Posted By: Abe The Babe
Date Posted: 07 October 2015 at 6:22pm
I think the general consensus is to ask the patent holders. Seems fair. Like GEB says it's not going to effect the patent holders with loss of sales especially considering they don't make anything for my purposes. So hopefully it's not an issue if I ever do decide to do it.

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There's a time and place for acoustical reflection.


Posted By: Requiem
Date Posted: 07 October 2015 at 9:36pm
As long as your not manufacturing and selling the cabinets, merely modifying your own speakers for your own use i do not see there being a huge issue there myself?




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www.requiem-soundsystem.com


Custom Martin Audio WSX, USB & CSG Soundsystem based in Bristol


Posted By: gorgo
Date Posted: 07 October 2015 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by S&P S&P wrote:

Originally posted by Abe The Babe Abe The Babe wrote:

Over the last while I've seen a few patented speaker inventions that I'd like to incorporate into my own speakers. They aren't for sale but I'd like to know where I'd stand with modifying speakers for installs and the speakers I hire out.
 
There's no ambiguity here.  You would be 100% in the wrong, legally, morally and by what ever other measure, unless you get authorisation from the current patent holder.  What you're asking is would I get away with it?  I guess you probably would whilst you're mot manufacturing them, but personally I would hope the patent holder found out and came after you.  It would be IP theft, plain and simple.  And theft is theft in my book regardless of whether you nick my telly or nick my patent (and I hold a few by the way). 

A great deal of the things we use, phones, laptops, dsp, speakers etc are made in China via hacked plans, some of these are blatant copyright infringements, the Chinese don't give a dam and the end users don't seem to have any moral problems,  so if you are using this to upgrade you're own speakers I see no moral issue whatsoever,  go for it.


Posted By: S&P
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 8:11am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

Originally posted by S&P S&P wrote:

Originally posted by Abe The Babe Abe The Babe wrote:

Over the last while I've seen a few patented speaker inventions that I'd like to incorporate into my own speakers. They aren't for sale but I'd like to know where I'd stand with modifying speakers for installs and the speakers I hire out.
 
There's no ambiguity here.  You would be 100% in the wrong, legally, morally and by what ever other measure, unless you get authorisation from the current patent holder.  What you're asking is would I get away with it?  I guess you probably would whilst you're mot manufacturing them, but personally I would hope the patent holder found out and came after you.  It would be IP theft, plain and simple.  And theft is theft in my book regardless of whether you nick my telly or nick my patent (and I hold a few by the way). 

A great deal of the things we use, phones, laptops, dsp, speakers etc are made in China via hacked plans, some of these are blatant copyright infringements, the Chinese don't give a dam and the end users don't seem to have any moral problems,  so if you are using this to upgrade you're own speakers I see no moral issue whatsoever,  go for it.
 
The words of someone who has never paid for or owned a patent presumably.  Of course there is a moral issue!!!  That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  If you take something that doesn't belong to you and that you have no right to use, it's theft.  It's a pretty simple concept and someone who knowingly does it is a thief as clear as day.  So what if the end user doesn't care or other people do it?  It doesn't justify theft in the first place.  Just because shoplifting is rife and people buy snide gear from markets doesn't make it OK to steal from shops does it?  Yours seems to be yet another example of the 'don't give a sh*t unless it's on my doorstep' and 'I can do what I want, regardless of what the law is crystal clear on' attitude that's prevalent nowadays.


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Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/


Posted By: gorgo
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 8:27am
wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults


Posted By: S&P
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 8:47am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults

 

OK.  Let’s explore this.  The essence of your justification for thinking it’s morally ok to take someone else’s property is that patent law is weak and apparently unenforceable in some regions.  If the law were stronger, is it suddenly not morally OK?  Moral behaviour is nothing to do with the law; it’s about what is right and what is wrong.  And taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong.



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Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/


Posted By: gorgo
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 9:01am
I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.


Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 9:23am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.




Posted By: S&P
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:04am
Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

I did not say it was morally ok, infact I agreed it was how you said, what I said was no one seems to care anymore, but it seems all you want to do is fight and throw insults and innuendo at me, many on this thread have said just do it, all I see is you standing on your soap box calling me dumb and saying I am whats wrong with society,  lol, I find it difficult to have a balanced and intelligent conversation with morally perfect soap box preachers who conveniently forget those morals when they want to insult people, however im sure there are many religious groups who would welcome your talents for preaching all things moral, have a good day.
 

LOL.  I didn’t call you dumb.  I said it was the dumbest thing I’ve heard – not the same thing.  We are all able to say dumb things occasionally, including me.  Take it as a personal insult if you have to.  I guess you’re sensitive.  I think you will find you did say it was morally OK, since you said in a previous post “I see no moral issue whatsoever, go for it”.  On that basis I think you are quite right that we are not going to be able to have a balanced and intelligent conversation.

I certainly will have a nice day – thanks.



-------------
Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae
http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/


Posted By: TRE4U2NV
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:16am
Originally posted by S&P S&P wrote:

Originally posted by gorgo gorgo wrote:

wow, dumb, yes it is as you say, however the point I was making is, no one seems to care anymore, phones are the biggest breach of copyright at the moment via the Chinese manufacturers,  there are millions being used and no one has a moral issue using them, no I do not have any patents, however I do have four registered designs to my name, I chose personal design registration over patent to avoid them being freely looked at and copied,  the patent system is floored in my oppinion but that is another story, the audio market is full of people back engineering other peoples property and re badging it, cdj's and t1200s instantly come to mind, just because our oppinions differ I see no reason for personal insults

 

OK.  Let’s explore this.  The essence of your justification for thinking it’s morally ok to take someone else’s property is that patent law is weak and apparently unenforceable in some regions.  If the law were stronger, is it suddenly not morally

 OK?  Moral behaviour is nothing to do with the law; it’s about what is right and what is wrong.  And taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong.


if patent has run out as in the time that said product can not be replicated without prior permission then yes you could cry foul play but if the correct time has passed then that's ok to me, and should be to all as this is how technology moves on the whole point of a patent was to allow the inventor time to profit from their invention, without competition so once time has elapsed on patent then its all good to me my 2p worth


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IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY


Posted By: TRE4U2NV
Date Posted: 08 October 2015 at 10:23am
ps you'll be surprised what is and isn't  copyrighted or patented companies will not shout about what has run out google patent is your guide 

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IM SO SECRETIVE BUT I CANT TELL YOU WHY


Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 09 October 2015 at 1:33am
Tapped horn patent (expired).
 
https://www.google.com/patents/US2604182?dq=2,604,182&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMIjZbC5JG0yAIVAck-Ch34dw0H" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.com/patents/US2604182?dq=2,604,182&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMIjZbC5JG0yAIVAck-Ch34dw0H


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djk


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 11 October 2015 at 3:38pm
There's no problem -- legal, moral or otherwise -- building something patented for your own personal use. If the patent isn't filed in your country there's no legal problem using it commercially, so long as you don't sell or distribute it in a country where there is a patent.

If the real product isn't available in your country there's no moral problem either because the patent holder isn't losing any sales; if it is, you have to make a decision on whether you want to take income away from them even though they can't stop you legally.

If the patent is valid in your country and you sell stuff that infringes it and the patent owner finds out -- which is likely -- you'll probably get a legal letter threatening to sue you unless you stop. But unless the loss of business to them is big enough to pay for the court costs -- which are high in patent infringement cases -- they may not actually take you to court.

I know this because we had a case where we knew one of our competitors was infringing one of our patents (they published a conference paper about it!), and after all the letters on the lines of "no we're not" "yes you are" in the end they basically said "so sue us". We looked at the cost of a patent infringement case in the US (estimate was $5M -- which you have to pay if you lose) versus the amount of business we might lose to them, and concluded it just wasn't worth it, even though we knew we were in the right.

Which I assume was the same calculation they'd made when deciding to infringe the patent, since they had one of our ex-employees working for them we knew damn well where they got the idea from...


Posted By: dlyxover
Date Posted: 11 October 2015 at 8:34pm
Morally its not best practice in my opinion if the application is commercial.

If you make something for personal use, not losing anyone sales/income or causing any damage to said manufactures product or reputation its for yourself to fight the demons.

I think its a very valid point IanD brought up.
For it to be financial viable to pursue such a issue, one would have to be selling a volume of units and would be making some noise about it (pun intend LOL) in the process.


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In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 11 October 2015 at 10:13pm
For personal use there aren't any demons to fight; patent law specifically allows exemptions for research or personal non-profit usage, in fact these can be viewed as positive from the point of view of the patent holder if they spread word of the invention.

It's where the thing is sold or distributed that matters, not where it was designed or manufactured, so patenting in China only prevents sales in China, not manufacturing. Patents are only valid in countries where they are filed; if the inventor doesn't file in countries with large potential markets, that's their problem, they shouldn't have tried to save money on patent filing costs.

But getting decent worldwide coverage with a properly written strong patent isn't cheap, we worked out that over ten years the cost averaged about £5000 a year, so £50000 per patent. In reality that means you've got to be doing a *lot* of business to make it worth doing this -- and a weak patent without wide coverage isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Now you know why most small businesses and inventors don't bother with proper patents -- it costs a fortune to file and even more to enforce against infringement. Even with big businesses (I hold getting on for 50 patents -- or at least, my employers do) the main use is to build up a patent portfolio in case of any disputes ("my patent pile's bigger than yours, don't mess with me"), and the usual result is some kind of royalty or licensing deal. Only a few very big high-profile cases with a shedload of money resting on them ever actually go to court.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 12 October 2015 at 8:41am
Yes I'd agree with your figure of £50000 for a worldwide patent, and that is not including the man hours and specialist staff required to make them stick. It is never as simple as just sending off the application to the office and you'll get it all back a year later.

Then consider you need European, USA, Japan, China, and maybe even some more to make an invention truly global. The barriers to small businesses in this area are immense, hence why as IanD says only the bigger operations get to play the patent wars game.



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