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band pass sub

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=92247
Printed Date: 20 April 2024 at 9:18am
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Topic: band pass sub
Posted By: b grade
Subject: band pass sub
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 2:25am
Glue is drying on my 6th order band pass sub prototype. If it works I will make 4 more. Designed for extending the sub in use with my 1850s. 

My goals were economy 30hz with a decentish efficiency, and the driver needs to be reasonable and obviously sim well for me to take a chance on it. My driver for the design was the Eminence Definimax 4018LF. There are better drivers, but it simmed decently and did not cost scary amounts, and recone kits are readily available. In the past I have mostly used european drivers, and I have not blown any (yet) but recone supplies are much more difficult to obtain and the cost include a hefty import price tag so this time I tried to go domestic instead.

Secondarily, I wanted to make the access panel removable to allow the rear chamber to be used as a standard reflex box, with a slightly awkward waveguide where the front chamber would have been. I feel like it can work though, so here's me trying.

I mostly used WINisd, but tried some other programs too to verify the predictions and get more detail. I simmed it as 12 small vents per chamber, as I feel they will perform better than giant but thin sloppy unbraced slot vents. The build is rather easy (at least compared to the horns I have been making lately), but it takes a long time. There are 52 pieces per box. 

Currently waiting for the glue to dry and my drivers to arrive. I will round off the vents and test the sound before I make any more or paint. I am not sharing plans right now, as this is an experiment and I don't even really know if it will work right yet.

Internal view.

Rear. The large handle on the back is also the recess for the speakons.

Reflex mode (Sans access panel). When the access panel is removed, the front vents just become braces. With the panel on, all of the air will be channeled through the vents above and below. The rear vents are the vertical rows on the right and left.

With the access panel in BP6 mode.  Should give about 6 db extra sensitivity at 40 hz than the reflex mode. Obviously sacrificing anything above pass band. 



Replies:
Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 2:32am
In Bandpass mode the F3 Passband is calculated to be 30hz to 100hz.

In Reflex mode, the lower f3 is 35 hz. 

Front chamber is 70 liters tuned to 66 hz. Rear chamber is 190 Liters tuned to 31hz.

External dimensions are 63.6 cm (to match the 1850s for stacking purposes) by 71.2 cm by 78 cm deep. It is big. Not as big as the 1850s though. Unloaded, I would guess it weighs about 100 pounds.


Posted By: Shaun
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 3:49am
Nice design and a cracking bit of wood work there, very sharp

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No, it is not a line array it is some well stacked boxes...............


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 4:26am
Thanks. :)

Drivers are here. Glue can't dry fast enough.


Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 5:58am
despite if it works or not it's nice to see someone trying something different on here instead of the same cabs being done over and over again or will this driver work in this box threads.
Looking good hope it works for you!


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Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes!


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 6:17am
Thanks. I hope it works out too, but even if it did not, I have vastly improved my wood woking and conceptual design skills. My biggest concern is that all of the different programs I tried seem to have different numbers for the vent lengths for the tuning I was shooting for. In the end I just went with the WinISD numbers and am hoping for the best.

Whether it is a success or failure I will be sure to post my observations.


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 6:54am
Nice design work.

Do you have the equipement to measure the cabinet and adjust vent lengths if needed?


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https://www.instagram.com/my_modular_journey/


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 3:04pm
I do not really have proper measuring equipment, but I can get a halfway decent spectrum using a DAW and Spectrum Analysis. If the vent needs shortening, I can get in there and make them shorter, but it will be messy, so I am hoping it performs properly. I don't think they will need to be longer. I can only remove about 3 cm of vent from the rear, but I could remove up to 12 cm from the front. Both of those changes would also change the volume as well. what would be hard is getting in there and re rounding the insides of the vents. Moving target. I really just want it to work. If the results are even close to my predictions, I will likely accept it for its shortcomings.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 3:06pm
Then again, I could replace any volume changes caused by the vent editing with more braces equal to the difference in volume.


Posted By: Shaun
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 4:12pm
the other option to changing the speaker cab is alter your expectationsThumbs Up

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No, it is not a line array it is some well stacked boxes...............


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 04 June 2015 at 4:58pm
Honestly, that is my whole philosophy of life. If I miss a target, then I move the target to where I hit. LOL

Really though, reducing the volume of the enclosure can also raise the tuning, and since I am not right at the smallest chambers the speaker can deal with, I have some room there. So if I need to raise the tuning, I will probably just subtract volume by adding more bracing. At least I will try that before I start butchering the vents.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 12:02am
Just test loaded the driver and listened to it in reflex mode. Access panel is the last bit I need to quarter round, but I had to go pick up my kid so I threw it in the back of the van and hooked it up. I had only like 150 watts to play with in the car, but it sounds clean and low. No measurements but it sounds like it is tuned at least semi competently in the rear chamber. Will get it on a proper amp later tonight and see what happens in band pass mode.


Posted By: app
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 12:06am
These kinda boxes are interesting and kinda mystery. To me anyway!

Good work!

Hope to see some video or something about this!

Thumbs Up


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"what!?"


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 1:15am
Me too.... iv been after a 15 inch band pass for A LONG TIME!


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 1:50am





Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 1:54am
I can't say for sure that I hit my target, but it sounds really nice at the levels I can get away with at home. I will see about measuring to the best of my ability, but I am not in any real hurry. Ear test approved anyhow. If I do not change my mind about it, I will paint it up in a couple days.


Posted By: studio45
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 4:17pm
I'd like to turn you on to this little utility, if you haven't seen it already: http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/flare-it.htm
It's very useful for telling you whether your ports will be noise-free. Those seem quite narrow to me - as you've said you haven't been able to test it at full power yet, I would be interested to know if the ports can cope with the driver's full output.


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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 4:21pm
What are those cavities on the sides?



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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: t.geessounds
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 5:25pm
i guess handles


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 5:48pm
Yes it is a handle that goes all the way across the sides. They are big but they allow you to grab it wherever it works when trying to wrestle it into the van. Also, going all the way accross they are failrly effective braces, especially when attached to the perpendicular brace that goes all the way accross and attaches the two handle boxes together. The volume displacement was considered in the design. 

As for the vents, I did flare them slightly on both sides, but my simulations have these at very low vent velocities because there are 12 per chamber. The area of vent per chamber is 204cm^2. I get mach 0.02 from the front calculation and 0.01 from the rear so I think it will work ok even at high power. We shall see I suppose. I have a gig to test it at next week. I believe a single sub will be totally underwhelming with the rest of the system, but I can run it to full power and make sure it does not whistle or self destruct under pressure. I was surprised that I could work with a vent that small, but it is not a particularly high xmax driver.

I can say for sure that when I listen to it, it does not seem to lobe between chambers at low power. A sim curve for frequency response for a BP6 kind of looks like a tapped horn with an upper lobe and a lower lobe and hopefully you can try to get the middle part within a db or so. The first one I designed, I made the upper lobe even with the middle and the lower lobe up about 1.5dbs. It worked, but you definitely can tell which vent you are listening to at any given moment. That lower one comes on and just crushes. For this one I tried to get a flatter sub response, and the result sounds more natural I think. 

totally subjective ear observations: For casual listening the reflex mode sounds best. For a great need of efficient sub, the BP6 has all the advantages.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 June 2015 at 10:36pm
I measured to the best of my ability in my very non ideal setting and it looks about how I want it for the range I want it. There is an ugly spike in efficiency at 100hz, but that is way higher than I would run in band pass mode, and also, that may just be a resonance of the room. I ran it as loud as I can in the house without bringing the police, and there was no port noise. Its like a fan in front of it though, and the frequencies I am running shake the framing of my house so some port noise may be hiding in there. So far I haven't detected any.

So this is my unscientific measurement with only a 30 hz hpf


This is the bit I intend to use as a bottom with my 1850s HPF at 30hz and LPF at 56hz.



Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 06 June 2015 at 7:42pm
I have been trying to run at louder levels in short bursts at my house, so I can try to hear problems, but not get a police fine. At first I thought I was getting port noise but the access panel was not as tight as it could go. Once I tightened it, it no longer made that noise. I may need some bracing on the access panel itself though. Being such a big panel, it could use a little beefing up. Also, when it gets near xmax, the wind in front increases dramatically. Since you can not really hear a driver struggling in a BP6, I may have to use the air movement to be the indicator of the driver being over driven. Comfortable breeze, a-ok. Hurricane gale, ease back a bit buddy.

My sims indicated that it could take 800 watts before xmax, but in reality it seems that 500 watts is plenty enough to drive it pretty hard. Then again, I am in a confined and rattley basement, so I may find that to not be the case when I take it into battle.


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 06 June 2015 at 10:03pm
  That looks sweet, the quality of some 'diy' builds on here is astounding. Thumbs Up


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 06 June 2015 at 10:50pm
I sincerely appreciate the compliment. It is a labor of love. And also anxiety and consequential poverty. but mostly just love.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 09 June 2015 at 3:49pm
So.... I guess I am all in. Have cut my flat packs for three more to make a set of four.

I am happy enough with how it sounds, but if I don't have four, I am unlikely to have a great result trying to see if one sub will keep up with four 1850s. I know it won't and I might just blow it trying to do so. So I need 4. Shucks. Guess you gotta take some risks in life.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 09 June 2015 at 3:51pm
Pics or it didnt happen!! Lol

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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 09 June 2015 at 3:58pm
It happened. I could take pics of my splinters, but the flat packs just look like piles of rectangles. 156 rectangles in fact. I will take a pic later when I get to work.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 09 June 2015 at 4:07pm
We love pics! Gluing and screwing... its all good. And we all love a good war scar too!



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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 09 June 2015 at 5:01pm
So far, nothing real bad. I did have a circular saw jump out of a full lengthwise cut on a sheet when the board pinched the blade. Chewed up the cut a bit, and scared me for a sec, but I held onto it. Other than that, I had a splinter about a cm long get jammed right up under the fingernail. I should wear gloves, but I feel less accurate with gloves on so, I will take the splinters as a cost of doing biz.

As for pics, I should have some good build pics over the next couple days. I will share when I have some banked.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 26 June 2015 at 1:48am
Had some other work to concentrate on so I am just finishing these. I have build pics but am entirely too tired to deal with multiple images. Here is a photo of the first two, sort of complete. I think I will try spraying inside of the vents as it is hard to paint in there with my roller. My paint job was a little sloppy but I know I am going to scratch them before they even get to gig one, so for this project, I decided a less furniture grade finish is tolerable. Now I won't be as sad when I inevitably damage the paint.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 26 June 2015 at 9:43pm
Fin. Oh thank the lord. These took some effort.


Posted By: immortal
Date Posted: 26 June 2015 at 9:52pm
They look amazing, very interesting layout.

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Cemetery Sounds


Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 27 June 2015 at 4:05pm
Very nice


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Mykey Wattco


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 27 June 2015 at 11:48pm
My gawd.... the heavinesss.... moved them to the basement by myself.... doable, but stupid as hell.

one man lift. Just lift that one man right up off the ground and take him to the morgue. He is dead for sure.


They weigh just a tiny bit less than my 1850s, but it is a dense weight, where the 1850s are top heavy so with leverage, they seem easier to move.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 9:29am
Still can't play them very loud for very long at my house, but here is a spectrum analysis playing some subby old school dnb. The listening environment is clearly terrible. Still, looking good on the RTA mic.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 9:34am
I picked the song because it clearly has a lowest note in the bassline just above 30hz. The HPF is at 30hz. The Low Pass is at around 80 I think for this test. For mid tops I am just using some yamaha 10inchers I usually use for DJ monitors.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 11:35am
Nice effort, they look industrial. Be interesting to see how it goes when you take them out in anger.


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 28 June 2015 at 3:50pm
Yeah, I played them pretty flipping loud for a couple minutes yesterday to listen for port noise. All I could hear was the frame of the house complaining. 



Seriously though, it is hard to really sound check in bursts because your ears have kind oa panic reaction in a closed space with sudden loudness.


Posted By: C-Audiofreak
Date Posted: 03 July 2015 at 9:34pm
dude they look awesome and spec well if i were you get a patent on that plan before they get cloned


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 06 July 2015 at 6:20am
I don't think I could patent it. There is no real invention happening. The layout/design is mine for sure, and I made it the way I wanted. I did not copy any piece of it, but really though, it is just a 6th order band pass sub. Everything I did, I did for a reason, but all of it is based on discoveries already made and best guesses with aid from common software simulations.

Sincerely appreciate all of the kind words.


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 06 July 2015 at 7:02am
Some clever ideas in them and excellent looking work overall. 


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 9:08am
Still have not had the perfect gig to really open these guys up but I used one of my subs and a pair of 10*1 on stands for a wedding I was doing. I ran it up until the amp ran out of steam. It was not ridiculously loud but with 500 watts a single 18 really put out a respectable bit of rich bass. Worked really well for every genre that played. When I played some bassy stuff they perk right up, but even for more traditonal sounds nothing sounded weird. When I knew the amp was close to clip I listened very closely to any hint of port noise. I heard nothing but clean bass. I was using the sub in band pass mode. I thought about running reflex for better fidelity sound, but I think I would have really needed two subs and transpo space was used up. 

I have tested with the band pass sub running straight to my mid horns (they are good to go down to 100 hz before there are xmax issues but they really have an F3 up around 170hz). It sort of works ok, but I miss the kicks without my 1850s horns. there is no use running these subs higher than 100hz. You are just making the driver work hard before the box eats everything but the standing waves. I like it 80hz or lower for the upper crossover. 60hz with the 1850s. The wedding 10*1s were just some yamaha bass reflex I usually use for DJ monitors. They run down to 65 according to spec. I used 75hz for the crossover.


Posted By: C-Audiofreak
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 11:18am
Well done all sounds great


Posted By: b grade
Date Posted: 05 September 2015 at 2:47pm
Took them out for a small chill room last weekend. The bass was so smooth an pretty. Just low as hell and comfortable. My amp power is used up well before any problems arise. Currently I am giving them something near 500 watts each.

I have a small main room gig coming up and have been working on stacking configs with the 1850s and my mid horns. This is what I have come up with for each side. Sure the 1850s would be subbier with all 4 together and ground loaded, but the BP6s are better than the 1850s for sub anyhow and it seems that in this config there is a natural drop off at 70hz for the 1850s, which sounds kinda nice instead of processing it out to transition to the subs. They are stacked upside down so that the solid panel on the front of the Band pass sub will act slightly like a horn extension following the path of expansion. ( <- That part is just a hypothesis).

I normally keep the treble on yokes but I think this works. The third level of the stack, where the mids and treble are, is just at my eyeball level, so I don't think I would angle it down much anyhow. The treble being up on top of the mids would allow the stack to have no ovehang, but it is too tall for the ceiling in some places.


Anyhow, the stack looks mean and the band passes fit pretty well as planned.


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 05 September 2015 at 9:15pm
  Very nice!Clap



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