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Digital Mixer - Delay / Lag

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=97458
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Topic: Digital Mixer - Delay / Lag
Posted By: brokenjoe
Subject: Digital Mixer - Delay / Lag
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:26am
I've been using various berry X-air / soundcraft type digital mixers, also midas m32R  recently

would these add a delay of any kind onto the DJ mons ? 

DJs been asking recently, triple checked my DSP setting, and it just has a basic limit / EQ on there 

only thing i could think of is having these mixers in the signal chain? 



thanks in advance 


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Replies:
Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:28am
Not enough to put a DJ off. 



Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:44am
Yes the amount depends on processing. Your DSP will also add latency, some are fixed others vary depending on filter choice etc.

It's easy enough to measure the latency of a circuit with dual channel measurement if it isn't published


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 11:57am

+1

If the desk is powering the PA, then the difference (latency) between the monitor and PA sends will be negligible.




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 4:44pm
Typically 2mS all said and done.

Move the speaker 2ft closer to compensate?


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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 5:14pm
its on a fixed install, the mons aren't really moveable for this site, but its something i've been asked a few times recently by some big names - so thought i'd better check :) 


2ms is a fair amount in a monitor..  don't forget the headphones won't have any at all.. so for me the delay between Main and FOH makes no odds, and i would never delay Mons to match to main.. As Djs aren't really listening to that as such

DSP is an XTA 1048 - with just a touch of EQ and limiting 
Mixer again has a touch of limiting, and then any EQ the DJs ask for nothing complicated 


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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 6:38pm
If your DJ can hear 2ms, he has an amazing brain.

Hass Effect deals with most stuff to about 30mS, most engineers, will spot from 15mS+ that something is odd, mostly unexpected combing, but 2mS takes some spotting.

Something must be up, as 2mS is just not noticeable, it is either a lot more (20mS+) or he is on a wind up?


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Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 7:09pm
The XTA is fixed at 1.5ms if analogue in to out. The XR18 has 11.4ms latency when used via the USB interface but I can't find measurements for the analogue in to out. M32R should have latency compensation so that matrices and master outs match the most latent part of the system when insert FX are used, I would assume this would affect mix buses too but haven't tested.

I have had some acts moan about the latency in monitors when running via a digital desk and then into a DSP unit - for example K DSP has a fixed latency of about 5.8ms and X series has an option to match that for ease of alignment, I disabled that before which brought X4 down to under 2ms and was given thumbs up. Some artists like Scruff ask to patch directly into monitor amp and DSP and basically, I often let them now simply because it's easier to keep them happy.

1ft distance is 1ms as well remember so you may have been above 10ms total, especially if the cabinets are time aligned to a booth sub or even in box itself. I know a lot of artists who would notice that, drummers primarily.


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

The XTA is fixed at 1.5ms if analogue in to out. The XR18 has 11.4ms latency when used via the USB interface but I can't find measurements for the analogue in to out. M32R should have latency compensation so that matrices and master outs match the most latent part of the system when insert FX are used, I would assume this would affect mix buses too but haven't tested.

I have had some acts moan about the latency in monitors when running via a digital desk and then into a DSP unit - for example K DSP has a fixed latency of about 5.8ms and X series has an option to match that for ease of alignment, I disabled that before which brought X4 down to under 2ms and was given thumbs up. Some artists like Scruff ask to patch directly into monitor amp and DSP and basically, I often let them now simply because it's easier to keep them happy.

1ft distance is 1ms as well remember so you may have been above 10ms total, especially if the cabinets are time aligned to a booth sub or even in box itself. I know a lot of artists who would notice that, drummers primarily.

i've had some adventures with scruffs team in the past. Confused once they knocked down a perfectly fine DJ box, to fit in an extra turntable 

it's an XR16, direct in and out all - normally run it off the cat5 

cable run is about 20m both ways, so analogue multicore to dsp / amps and then back from amps to speaker, don't have issues elsewhere with this size run.. 




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Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 9:52pm
Surely there is some amount of delay to the bus outs but no way a DJ or his manager/engineer/sound guy
can be aware of it even with plugins or other processing as mentioned above.
It sounds like a venue/club reflections issue of some kind.We usually dont have problems with live bands using the above gear, although all these models dont have any delay compensation especially with their dsp effects as far as I know.
The mixer that I found a noticeable delay on mons was the avid s3L.
And now that you mentioned Mr scruff I remember many years ago he was booked in the venue I work at.His sound guy was very demanding on some things , so we gave as much attention as possible.During the show I noticed the guy's laptop running some plugins on red clipping.The sound was mp3'ish if you know what I mean.The system was a Meyer mts4 with 650 subs,quite decent for the venue at that time..


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

It sounds like a venue/club reflections issue of some kind.
  

 This was my first thought, if a dj can hear a 2ms delay he/she must be superhuman! In the past I may have added delay to a naughty red-lining dj's monitors on purpose (Big smile) but it would typically take up to and above a hundred ms to have any effect.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 07 January 2017 at 10:14pm
reflections was my first thought too.. but then i figured brokenjoe seems to have been running big high profile gigs in big venues for years, so i'm sure he knows about that..

i think i'm going to get a UI12 for a play sometime soon, hadn't thought that something like latency would be noticeable on the outs though..


Posted By: Danny A
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 12:02am
X32 / M32 analogue input to output latency is 0.85ms, analogue to analogue via AES50 adds another 0.25ms, so less than a ms which is nothing

are you routing audio through the usb/firewire? this will add a noticeable amount of latency



Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 1:18pm
For sure its heard if goes through DSP. Guarantee DJ's would be happier without eq than with latency. Or you can add analogous eq. Or even change eq on DJ mixer so it will fit DJ's and DSP fronts to compensate.


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 1:36pm
What about the ever popular Pioneer desks? Anyone know what sort of latency they have? I did do some measurements on a DJM900 ages ago, but can´t remember exactly what I got. I think it may have been around 1mS, which as noted above is negligible. Are the more modern desks that much worse?




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 08 January 2017 at 1:47pm
Its not an issue. Same latency DJ has on headphones.


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 8:51am
They're only asking so they look clever. 

Proper drummers (and most crap ones as well) would notice latency in digital desks quite easily - guess what, it's not something they have an issue with. And they are actual musicians :D


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 09 January 2017 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

They're only asking so they look clever. 

Proper drummers (and most crap ones as well) would notice latency in digital desks quite easily - guess what, it's not something they have an issue with. And they are actual musicians :D

Nail Hammer Head!!!

They may also be asking because they are playing crap and want someone to blame.

Had it once with a certain up and coming DJ playing with 4 CDJ's moaning like hell about the Monitors for his whole set with his mates giving me hell. Unfortunately for him Mickey Finn was on after him, 2 x 1210's playing plastic. Double dropped his first record perfectly and smashed the granny out of it using exact same Monitor set up. 

I had a little smerk ;)


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www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 8:52am
would having the RTA on constantly effect it? 

if i've got MCs i always have a spectragraph running to catch when they invariably stand in front of Main FOH 

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Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 10:22am
do some of those digital desks not have built in feedback exterminators?


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 10:38am
"would having the RTA on constantly effect it?"

All processing will effect the latency, even changing the eq´s, but how much and if it will actually be noticible is another point. Do you actually notice your PC updating the screen? Obviously not, as it happens too quickly for your brain to register anything.




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 11:28am
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

They're only asking so they look clever. 

Proper drummers (and most crap ones as well) would notice latency in digital desks quite easily - guess what, it's not something they have an issue with. And they are actual musicians :D

Nail Hammer Head!!!

They may also be asking because they are playing crap and want someone to blame.

Had it once with a certain up and coming DJ playing with 4 CDJ's moaning like hell about the Monitors for his whole set with his mates giving me hell. Unfortunately for him Mickey Finn was on after him, 2 x 1210's playing plastic. Double dropped his first record perfectly and smashed the granny out of it using exact same Monitor set up. 

I had a little smerk ;)


ha ha ha

it's mainly the volume of the monitors that bothers me. if it's too low, it gets confusing. but then you can just do everything in headphones :)


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 11:37am
Its mad how loud DJ's have their monitors, If I am running a system from side of stage and the DJ turns the booth down I normally jump out of my camping chair and spill my hot chocolate.
Either their hearing is knackard or they are using moulds.


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www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 11:44am
it's mainly because they'll have a loud headphone in one ear, and a loud (delayed) rig in the other, so a loud monitor is needed. at least that's how it is for me!

it doesn't excuse most of the dj cunty mccunts though


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 2:08pm
They have to get over the (delayed) sound of the mains.
I use drum screens a lot for this. Monitors can go way down. they also stop the flying beer.


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Its mad how loud DJ's have their monitors, If I am running a system from side of stage and the DJ turns the booth down I normally jump out of my camping chair and spill my hot chocolate.
Either their hearing is knackard or they are using moulds.


loco dice, in a 500 cap venue recently :

2x ARCS
1x SB28 a side! 

we had only a little more for the main PA 




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Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 8:34pm
I had a 12+1 in a small booth, the horn was literally 18 inches from the dj's left ear, the only amp I had available to power it was ever so slightly too powerful but it didn't matter 'cos I'd keep an eye on it'. Anyway, I had to leave the venue for a while only to have a phone call about 20 minutes later to say the monitor's stopped working. When I strip it down to have a look the voicecoil on the 12 has burned up so badly it's completely jammed in the gap and the diaphragm in the CD has shattered. Completely my fault as I had the monitor hooked up to an amp about three times too powerful with no limiting and left the djs too it, however, the volume in the booth must have been absolutely ridiculous, or the dj was deaf....


Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Its mad how loud DJ's have their monitors, If I am running a system from side of stage and the DJ turns the booth down I normally jump out of my camping chair and spill my hot chocolate.
Either their hearing is knackard or they are using moulds.


loco dice, in a 500 cap venue recently :

2x ARCS
1x SB28 a side! 

we had only a little more for the main PA 



Oh we also did loco dice last year.I doubt if he really understand any difference between arcs or any other speaker system.His sound guy asked for the l acoustics network with amps during soundcheck.The only thing he did is take the sub all the way up which ,we could do from the  H3000 mixer since it was on another aux send.Of course he didnt even notice that the horns from the arcs were the other way around..Confused
anyway ,funny guys ,shitty music.Nice mixer though..



Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 11:05pm
Can tell im getting old, Ive never even heard of Loco Dice!


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www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 10 January 2017 at 11:33pm
Believe me you dont miss anything,I learnt about him at the event


Posted By: Danny A
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 3:33am
Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

would having the RTA on constantly effect it? 

if i've got MCs i always have a spectragraph running to catch when they invariably stand in front of Main FOH 

I doubt that is where your problem lies but you could y split a signal into it so the mains bypass it.

have you measured the delay? if so what was the result?


Posted By: VentureSound
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:04am
You could just use the booth output on the DJ mixer! Smile


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:32am
"I had a 12+1 in a small booth,"

Or how about 4 x 15" Eons getting burned out by a dj at a place here. Now that´s what I call friggin´ deaf.    Dead




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 11:17am
booth output is fine until there's a couple of feature mcs or singers and you need to route them to monitor too.. then booth gets routed through a desk of some kind.


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

You could just use the booth output on the DJ mixer! Smile

i do, they go through their own channel on a pre fade, and out the Aux to the mons 

just so i can EQ if needed 


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Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

Oh we also did loco dice last year.I doubt if he really understand any difference between arcs or any other speaker system.His sound guy asked for the l acoustics network with amps during soundcheck.The only thing he did is take the sub all the way up which ,we could do from the  H3000 mixer since it was on another aux send.Of course he didnt even notice that the horns from the arcs were the other way around..Confused
anyway ,funny guys ,shitty music.Nice mixer though..


his engineer was pretty clued up to be fair to him, did he bring the new play differently mixer?

nice, but had to open it up, as some of the plastic bits had fallen off from the board, and were rattling around.. brand new out the box!


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Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"I had a 12+1 in a small booth,"

Or how about 4 x 15" Eons getting burned out by a dj at a place here. Now that´s what I call friggin´ deaf.    Dead


  

 WHAT??

 Seriously, four 15+1's would do most venues around here as FOH, never mind as monitors.


Posted By: geoSal
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:27pm
yes he had a new mixer ,its brand I dont remember but it was pretty fancy.
And yes his engineer knew what he was doing , although during his act he was in the back rooms playing with his mobile phone.I guess he doesnt like the artists's music much..
But the thing with the arcs everywhere he plays is quite ridiculous for what we were listening during his set


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

yes he had a new mixer ,its brand I dont remember but it was pretty fancy.
And yes his engineer knew what he was doing , although during his act he was in the back rooms playing with his mobile phone.I guess he doesnt like the artists's music much..
But the thing with the arcs everywhere he plays is quite ridiculous for what we were listening during his set

black thing.. no xfader? 



the engineer was pretty off it by the end of his set.. LOL 



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Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

You could just use the booth output on the DJ mixer! Smile

i do, they go through their own channel on a pre fade, and out the Aux to the mons 

just so i can EQ if needed 


Thats how most people do it, Can limit the output on the bus then aswell as EQ etc etc.


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www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

You could just use the booth output on the DJ mixer! Smile

i do, they go through their own channel on a pre fade, and out the Aux to the mons 

just so i can EQ if needed 


Thats how most people do it, Can limit the output on the bus then aswell as EQ etc etc.

i put a touch of hard compression on the input too... just so i can go for a piss (sleep)  and not worry a great deal 


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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

he didnt even notice that the horns from the arcs were the other way around..

Wasn't it on purpose?


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by geoSal geoSal wrote:

he didnt even notice that the horns from the arcs were the other way around..

Wasn't it on purpose?


to be fair.. when you have four of the buggers pointing at you..  who would care 


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Originally posted by brokenjoe brokenjoe wrote:

Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

You could just use the booth output on the DJ mixer! Smile


i do, they go through their own channel on a pre fade, and out the Aux to the mons 

just so i can EQ if needed 


Thats how most people do it, Can limit the output on the bus then aswell as EQ etc etc.


i put a touch of hard compression on the input too... just so i can go for a piss (sleep)  and not worry a great deal 


Compressors on DJs

Try an automatic gain control, you have options with the FX on the X32/M32…


Posted By: brokenjoe
Date Posted: 11 January 2017 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 
Compressors on DJs

Try an automatic gain control, you have options with the FX on the X32/M32…


i said just a touch.. with a high ratio 20:1+  - never had any major issues Tongue





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Posted By: Danny A
Date Posted: 12 January 2017 at 6:24am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 

Try an automatic gain control, you have options with the FX on the X32/M32…

Good idea - better option than a compressor


Posted By: B_Bender
Date Posted: 12 January 2017 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Danny A Danny A wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 

Try an automatic gain control, you have options with the FX on the X32/M32…

Good idea - better option than a compressor

We use Waves SoundGrid for dealing with this particular type of idiot


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 12 January 2017 at 9:56am
Originally posted by njw njw wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"I had a 12+1 in a small booth,"

Or how about 4 x 15" Eons getting burned out by a dj at a place here. Now that´s what I call friggin´ deaf.    Dead


  

 WHAT??

 Seriously, four 15+1's would do most venues around here as FOH, never mind as monitors.


No, I kid you not. The dj was some out-of-town hotshot who asked for the extra monitors. I imagine that he dialed up the bass-end on the Eons and then blew them when playing around with the bass boost on the desk. The Eons aren´t exactly the best for bottom-end. It may have been better to just use 2 with some sub drivers as well, but you never can tell.

The owner of the place was obviously not happy. I doubt whether Mr. DJ ever be coming back here again.   Ouch





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Earplugs Are For Wimps!



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