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Seriously high output lithium battery packs.

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Hemisphere View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 March 2015 at 3:05pm
I think it's finally happened - after years of scanning through the various Chinese wholesale retailers and eBay listings I found a type lithium pack that looks really worth the while for high output 12v systems where low weight is a primary concern: 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Xin-Sheng-Li-12V30AH-high-power-batteries-60A-current-xenon-lamp-lithium-battery-12V-large-capacity/32313379903.html

Not sure if these are particularly a good price or reliable retailer - It's hard to be sure, but it's the basic variety of battery pack that's on offer here that's exciting.

Although it's quite small - certainly for the cost - it also has a very high burst and continuous current rating, at 45 and 60 amps respectively

That means at it's rated voltage (12.6v when fully charged) this thing can pump out a massive 756 Watts, enough to power almost all mainstream mid-high power monoblock 12v sub amplifiers (I just picked up an Infinity Kappa One (Harman Kardon subsidiary) which can put out  800 Watts RMS in one 2ohm channel (in this case RMS meaning 1%THD+N) with a 12.6v input (not sure on exact voltage but in that ballpark) - stable down to 1ohm so you could hang 4x 4ohm or 8x 8ohm subs off one of them so long as you kept it under control and the amp would probably need a fan srapped to it! And with a crest factor of 8-9dB on the music signal that one piddly looking 2.5 kilo helmet torch battery would play for 4-5 hours on near enough full volume, and 16 hours plus at what most people would still consider to be an unacceptably loud volume, especially if it's used outdoors which is the most likely case scenario for 12v sound.

Throw into the mix a pair of 100 watt 12v flexi solar panels 2.5 kilos and about £100 each, a 200 Watt solar charge controller about .5 kilos £20 and you're looking at a system which never ever falls below acceptable levels of sound output even on a cloudy day, saving further battery life on a a backup system which delivers 50 Watts per channel at 4ohms through ultra-high efficiency class D chip amps into as many seperate channelled drivers as your system contains. So about £370 for a fully solar-charging battery system capable of outputting 756 Watts or £520 for one that can provide peaks of up to 1512 watts. (with 2 amps, the other channel could be running on midtops), and weighing just 12 and 19 kilos respectively including amps. + whatever you spend on the amps, I paid £72 used. That's new Playstation or New Xbox pricing levels, practically in toy territory for many people. Providing you don't basically rag the battery all day, which isn't good for any battery anyway, you will get the same functionality from this set up as you would get from a much larger, much heavier and not much cheaper leisure battery weighing upwards of 30kg for the battery alone.

Plus, flashy bling solar on your rig: excellent!


Edited by Hemisphere - 31 March 2015 at 3:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lutkeveld Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 3:39pm
I don't trust lithium stuff from Ali or eBay. Better to buy some (second hand) ebike batteries IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 4:25pm
I looked at eBike batteries but there were none that had anything like that level of power output to size ratio. eBike batteries are tailored specifically to eBikes which draw around 350 Watt peaks so that's where their limit usually lies. They're also mostly 5 kilos or so, that's twice the weight for capacity you don't need on solar power.

Depends how critical every kilo is in your system design I suppose. If a leisure battery takes your system up from 40 to 70 kilos it means it's no longer practical to take long distances by bike.

When getting your 750 Watts from a pair of lithium eBike batteries (£250) you're also adding 7.5 kilos of battery weight + possibly an extra two or three kilos from the weight of another amp, so without being any cheaper at all it would still take that 40 up to a 50 and that extra 10kg even if you can carry it are far better used on proper mic stands, speaker stands, mixers, mics cables projectors and so on.


Edited by Hemisphere - 31 March 2015 at 4:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saturnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 4:30pm
LiFePO4 batteries from credible manufacturers such as A123 systems or Thundersky have 60C burst and 20C sustained discharge rates when not limited by a battery protection module.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 4:50pm
Couple of observations here ....

They say individual cells are 2Ah, and they say (I think) the pack is 3S10P - so how does that get to 30Ah ?

Also - no balancing connectors ?  No BMS ?






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 4:59pm
I suppose my instinct was swayed by the fact that these really aren't particularly cheap for what they do. If it's a scam and the numbers are wildly different from the specs listed (even a little worse would still be very good), what would they stand to gain from asking such an inaccessibly high price for it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saturnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 5:53pm
Not to rain on that particular battery but there's some things to note. The spec says it uses 30 2Ah cells in 3S10P connection. How that can be more than 20Ah total capacity I simply fail to understand.

Nominal voltage is 11.1V. Note that this is very near or sometimes under the standard built-in low battery protection in car power amps which usually shuts down when battery voltage goes below 10.5V but in some cases are set as high as 11.5V.

Lithium batteries require a special charger. You cannot charge them most standard chargers nor can you charge them a CV charger at more than C/10 (ie. max 2A).


Ok, it's almost twice the size and weighs 40% more but it's also in an incredibly sturdy case. This has an honest 20A capacity. Is 12.8V nominal. Doesn't need special chargers. And has 60A sustained and 200A peak discharge rates. This can be charged with up to a 20A standard charger and a 50A pulsed current special charger which means you can charge it in about 20 minutes from flat to full. My memory fails me but I think Thundersky guarantees 5000 or 7000 deep charge cycle life time before capacity drops to 85% of initial capacity.

Did I mention it's cheaper and from a European retailer?  


Edited by Saturnus - 31 March 2015 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2015 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by Saturnus Saturnus wrote:





Nice. Actually I'll have a couple of these please Louise :-

http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-90Ah-WB-LP12V90AH.html

.... not exactly loose change though.

This company seem like the business, but the shipping costs of those batteries was almost as much as the battery when I enquired with them a while ago.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2015 at 8:12am
Very interesting site - will need to find out more about these Lifepo4s - heard lots of good things but never sold on them yet. 

http://www.ev-power.eu/WINA-30Ah-100Ah/WINA-LiFePO4-Power-3-2V-50Ah-aluminium-case.html these 3.2v packs look very interesting, if it would be possible to wire them up to 12.8v and safely charge them in that arrangement it works out at $240 + shipping/vat for a 50ah lifepo4 with very high discharge rate weighing 7 kilos.


I just registered an account there, and the total shipping + tax costs are not prohibitive. 4 of these cells (total 40Ah 12.8v in 6kg) comes to to $253.55 or around £170. 


Edited by Hemisphere - 01 April 2015 at 9:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saturnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2015 at 2:12pm
EV power generally recommend that if you need multiples of 4 cells that you take one of their ready-made 12V packs which uses matched cells which means that a cell balancing circuit is not needed.

I'd also like to point out they have two different chemistries. LiFePO4 and LiFeYPO4. The difference is that the 2nd generation Yttrium cells have substantially better cycle life, usually 5000/7000 cycles compared to 2000/3000 cycles of regular LiFePO4. Yttrium cells is also slightly better in all other parameters.

An example of a LiFeYPO4 cell is the one I posted before or http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-40Ah-WB-LP12V40AH.html if you like 40Ah pack instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote midas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2015 at 3:02pm
A few years ago, I used to upgrade Airsoft guns. Not going into too much detail but High torque motor, a switch that included a mosfet or two and a battery.
 
NiCad always seemed to loose power in the freezing cold. Literally just drop it.
 
Lifepo always seemed a little underwhelming, never quite performed how you expected.
 
LiPo easily the best performers.
 
The batts I used to use were predominantly 1 - 4 cells. The higher burst capacities configure cells in series and in parallel. Generally standard guns ran on 7.4v upgraded ran on 11.1 and daft ones, the ones I used to show off with ran on 14.5v.
 
Each cell outputs 0.5v more that stated, so a 7.4 (two cells) will actually be 8.4, 11.1 will be 12.6 and the 14.5 will be 17.5v.
 
The main difference with a LiPo is not only their performance but their ability to continue to operate at that level for pretty much its working capability, then they die. Literally power drops in a snap of the fingers, when powering a small electric motor anyway. I think it is a cell value of 2.9v if you use them or try to use them beyond this you will have damaged the battery beyond repair.
 
I used to use Turnigy Accucell 6 charger. Not overly expensive and could be run from a car battery, so maybe your solar panels could run a lead acid batt and then on to run the LiPo charger.
 
You could charge them at up to 5a, seems little harsh I maxed mine at 2a but only on a game day.
 
Some of that may be useful to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saturnus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2015 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by midas midas wrote:

Lifepo always seemed a little underwhelming, never quite performed how you expected.
 
LiPo easily the best performers.

You sure you don't have that the otehr way around? LiPo batteries are junk.
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