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nickyburnell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 April 2009 at 9:33pm
Nothing personal here, just a pattern.
 
 As is documented, I had to make Staip mini scoop chamber smaller to get control of a V18 1200.
 
Mikeys Rhino, quote from first post: "1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey"
 
But now we have Mk2 to aid control of driver...
 
 Are we not just going round in circles with already known parameters?
 The sims are obviously way out. Somewhere on here Rog says something like, it just shows what a load of bol**** it all is (or something close).
 
 That sim showed little movement of cone with V18 1200 at 1200w. I think we all know that aint gonna happen.
 
 Before the sim software some amazing cab's were built, trial and error. Thing is, the trial and error is still happening because the sims are wrong.
 
 You can now all shoot me down with techno babble.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deadbeat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2009 at 9:58pm
What's your point?

They work well for FLHs

They don't work so well for RLHs

If it doesn't fit in HR, go to David McBean. He is still somewhere on this forum, I think.

To be honest, every scoop I have ever seen looks roughly the same on the inside, all you do nowadays is just mess about with the chamber size. There's not much you're going to achieve simming anyway, if you know that it's wrong, and it's not going to be improved in the next version...

Are there any measurements of the scoops mentioned so often that anyone would like to put on the forum?

EDIT: This may look harshly worded, but it's not


Edited by Deadbeat - 23 April 2009 at 9:58pm
Away on extended leave.
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nickyburnell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2009 at 10:43pm

Harsh, never ;)

Point was simple, sims said one thing, ie: no cone movment 1200w blah. Blatently not true in real life. This has IMHO been compounded by my experience with Staip Mini and the fact that there is a Mk2 Rhino. Not taking anything away from the designers, many thanks to them, it's just the sims aint right, so we are back to trial and error.
 Mykey has found that the Mk2 controls driver, I found that Staip mod did same. As you rightly said, they're all roughly the same. I can really see why, "Non technical" cab bulders have had success with scoops, trial and error. 
 Please, please don't take this the wrong way anybody.


Edited by nickyburnell - 23 April 2009 at 10:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 2:03am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Mykey has found that the Mk2 controls driver, I found that Staip mod did same.



Posted Nov 20008

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/the-bull-x-medium-size-updated_topic20926_page2.html

Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:


Can say straight away most 18s (even Eminence Kappa) would work in this scoop, below 500W. But the chamber seems very large, so drivers would last longer in the version with all the bracing and tuning.

Mykey, how about excursion graphs @ 800W for,

a)V18-1200
b)V18-1000
c)PD1850



Posted 27th December 2008

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/cow-18-full-size-scoop_topic22328_page4.html
Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:


However, the newest designs are medium chamber, which benefits from both low end extension, and high efficiency.


Originally posted by YoungBlood YoungBlood wrote:


Mykey I want to build 636mm, medium chamber version of this.

Guess about 60 litre version with is about right for me. But someone told me if I reduce width, that reduce throat, so might have to shorten rear baffle board.

Is this right.? Or Can  I just shorten depth from the front by about 10%, and width to 636mm?


Posted 8 March 2009
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/ms-18-mini-scooper_topic22858_page9.html
Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

It's 420mm. Can add flange later if need be. Using clamps when I find BIG ones.


I think someone said Adam Hall/Terralec.

Tek will now for sure.

Blame "Darryl O'Brien" for my signature. Wink

EDIT: Does'nt look like much compression going on, when you see the build to scale though. Confused



Look at the above posts, and you'll see I consistently pointed that chambers which are too large will lead to blowing drivers at approx 500W.

I also consistently said Medium chambers are the "new" bad "bwoys". Youngblood said this as well. Regarding MS-18, It was also obvious there was little compression/over size chamber going on in the MS-18.

Originally posted by Mykey Mykey wrote:


1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey


I knew the above was BS when I read it, as I have owned V18-1200, and know from seeing it in large chamber and sims, it won't take 800W in large chamber. However when I mentioned this before I was lynched, so I decided to let someone else prove it.

Nicky, HR is "extremely" accurate when it comes to simulating Xmax displacement.

Have a look at the "Levyte scoop design thread", and you'll see I simulated Turbomax, 1850 and V18-1200, and the Xmax displacement results are exactly what was seen at shootout, or what people have found since then.

EDIT:My scoop didnt work out because I didnt know how to translate HR input data to Real world horn folding. I am leaving that to the experts in Future.

However as HBL already said, many builders arrive at excellent cabs by trial and error, without software. Tony R and Shortman being 2x of them.



Edited by levyte357 - 24 April 2009 at 2:09am
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mykey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:20am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Nothing personal here, just a pattern.
 
 As is documented, I had to make Staip mini scoop chamber smaller to get control of a V18 1200.
 
Mikeys Rhino, quote from first post: "1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey"
 
But now we have Mk2 to aid control of driver...
 
 Are we not just going round in circles with already known parameters?
 The sims are obviously way out. Somewhere on here Rog says something like, it just shows what a load of bol**** it all is (or something close).
 
 That sim showed little movement of cone with V18 1200 at 1200w. I think we all know that aint gonna happen.
 
 
 
 You can now all shoot me down with techno babble.Smile
yes, for all the other FR'sLOL
 
that was @ 40hz, and why wouldn't it?  
 
are theyWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:28am
Nick, its simple, large chamber= less SPRING effect
 
the whole Idea of the large chamber was to CHEAT, cheat as in get a small scoop to play lower, low like a large scoop
 
I gave the Rhino 71 litres because lev said that was roughly what large chambered minis were
 
it plays low but with too much cone movement, it would need Rambo style drivers to play all night
 
its common sense that a smaller chamber will give better control
 
I had a play around with the Rhino design and found that i could increase the SPL with little loss of bottom end, and keeping the cone in its chassis 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:37am
LOL
Originally posted by Mykey


1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey


I knew the above was BS when I read it, as I have owned V18-1200, and know from seeing it in large chamber and sims, it won't take 800W in large chamber. However when I mentioned this before I was lynched, so I decided to let someone else prove it.
 
it didn't matter what driver it was, it was the horn that was denoting what was going on
it was saying at 40hz there is little cone movement, this was fact, I saw it right in front of my eyes lol, it didn't mean that all the other FR's were going to be the same
 
 
"However as HBL already said, many builders arrive at excellent cabs by trial and error, without software. Tony R and Shortman being 2x of them."
 
only a short time will tell lol




Edited by mykey - 24 April 2009 at 6:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:40am
you've owned 4 v1200's and sold them?
 
maybe you should have waited for a proper design scoop to put them in lol Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:58am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Mikeys Rhino, quote from first post: "1200 watts into the V1200, close to 130db @40hz, with little cone movement, 4 would be scarey"
 
 
.....@ 40Hz it does'nt say any other frequencyWink
 
@
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mobiele eenheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 8:15am
Quote Somewhere on here Rog says something like
Rog did do that before the whole tapped horn hype.
 
Further development was needed for predicting tapped horns with HR, IIRC McBean stated the accuracy for sim'ing back loaded horns have lifted with this development. All back loaded BPH I've build seem to correlate very nicely to the sim'ed displacement.
 
Best regards Johan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 8:34am
Phew, just got up. Thanks for keeping it freindly. Obvious conclusion is a bit like life really, everybody is right and wrong to a greater or lesser degree. Thread does condense a lot of stuff to make good reading.
 Suns out!
 Nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 April 2009 at 9:58am
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

 
I had a play around with the Rhino design and found that i could increase the SPL with little loss of bottom end, and keeping the cone in its chassis 


Exactly.

The Turbomax 1200/1500 and V18-1000 are the only drivers "in UK", that won't lose their lunch when fed over 800W in large chamber, however put those in a medium chamber and you will still get decent sub, and real 1kw power handling.


Edited by levyte357 - 24 April 2009 at 10:02am
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