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Skating rink sound system upgrade

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    Posted: 24 June 2017 at 9:34pm
New here and not sure where this should go.

I DJ at a local skating rink which has a decent sound system consisting of

Several QSC K8 powered speakers (can get an exact number when I go there tonight to DJ).
Four Yorkville LS1208 subs arranged two per corner with them on their sides with the horn mouths next to each other powered by two QSC RMX series amps (can get exact model number tonight).
DBX 234 crossover
One Soundcraft EPM-6 mixer controls it all.

They are looking to upgrade the system later this year when an addition is completed.

The skating floor is 10,000 sq ft

Here's a couple pictures of the rink

http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/0513170159a.jpg. -

http://s863.photobucket.com/user/jmcinvale/media/Skating%20rink/0513170159.jpg. -

The bass is very poor due to the subs used and the fact they are only in two corners.

What I want to know is what subs will work in that space to produce bass flat to 30Hz if possible, how many I will need and where I should put them?

Based on the rink design the subs will have to be restricted to the corners as there's no other place to put them.

My plan is to power whatever subs are best with the new Yamaha amps that have the built in DSP as that will give me more adjustments to make the subs sound their best.

Personally I think the wall speakers and mixer are fine, but what do y'all think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2017 at 9:58pm
Suspending the tops 15-20 feet up in the roof structure pointing down towards the floor would give better, even coverage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2017 at 10:29pm
The way the tops are done is there's a fairly good amount of them around the rink and in the past I've walked around he rink and the tops seemed to give even coverage. Also there's no echo or any of the problems associated with speakers faced like those are, but that may be due to no two speakers being exactly faced at each other. 

If thee's better sounding tops out there (powered or not) I'd be inclined to look into those as well and perhaps then I might pitch the idea to them of doing as you suggested.

I get the impression that the whole system is being redone, but if the tops are good enough then that will give more money to spend on the bass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 3:21am
Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

The bass is very poor due to the subs used and the fact they are only in two corners.
If bass is very poor with those boxes something in the setup is screwed up.. the subs are out of phase with each other for example.

Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

What I want to know is what subs will work in that space to produce bass flat to 30Hz if possible, how many I will need and where I should put them?
Flat to 30hz in a giant echo chamber like that is a pipe dream, just concentrate on getting consistent sound throughout the venue.. that is gonna be a big enough challenge.

Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

what do y'all think?


Best results will be with everything hung in a cluster over center ice

Second best is with everything at one end or centered on 1 side wall.

Everything else will be various degrees of crap that no processing will fix.

p.s. Why do they have a 3 way crossover in a 2-way system?


Edited by Conanski - 25 June 2017 at 3:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 3:48am
The crossover can be configured as 2 or 3 way stereo or 4 way mono.

Another site recommended some of the super scoopers, but I'd need four per corner for 30Hz bass response.

I did hear one system with a center speaker cluster using older JBL components and it sounded good except the bass response went to only around 40Hz.

The current subs only go to 35Hz which I'm sure isn't flat to 35Hz. The main problem though is they don't sound that good and require a good bit of power. On some songs the subs sound fine, but on other songs it's like the subs aren't on. I already got them adjusted as best as possible.

There are 14 wall speakers.

With the right subs I'm sure I can get somewhat better bass response than what i currently have.

One skating rink i go to uses four JBL 4520 cabinets and even though they don't go to 30 Hz I've never heard more natural sounding bass.

Even if I can't reasonably get flat to 30Hz something better sounding than what they have now will be a huge improvement.

Edited by Tube Radio - 25 June 2017 at 3:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 4:28am
Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

The crossover can be configured as 2 or 3 way stereo or 4 way mono.
All the subs need to be on a summed mono feed and of course all working in phase with each other. Stereo subs is no good when the stacks are so far apart like this.

Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

Another site recommended some of the super scoopers, but I'd need four per corner for 30Hz bass response.
They won't be flat to 30hz and I don't see any scoop outperforming a FLH. You should try stacking all 4 of the Yorkville's together, that will tell you a lot about their current configuration and how they interact with the room for better or worse.

Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

The current subs only go to 35Hz which I'm sure isn't flat to 35Hz.
You're going be hard pressed to find any pro sub that truely goes flat to 30hz.

Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

The main problem though is they don't sound that good and require a good bit of power. On some songs the subs sound fine, but on other songs it's like the subs aren't on. I already got them adjusted as best as possible.

With the right subs I'm sure I can get somewhat better bass response than what i currently have.

One skating rink i go to uses four JBL 4520 cabinets and even though they don't go to 30 Hz I've never heard more natural sounding bass.

Even if I cant reasonably get flat to 30Hz something better sounding than what they have now will be a huge improvement.

Seems to me you just like the sound of scoops with all their color and distortion, in comparison a FLH is just too clean and is probably showing you how much extra noise you are used to hearing. That said I have never seen a speaker system that wouldn't benefit from some custom DSP processing so there is room for improvement here, but I think you're totally kidding yourself if you think scoops would be a "massive improvement".  You got 4 horn loaded 1000w B&C drivers there in boxes with higher sensitivity and more output than a double 18 reflex box with twice as much power. If you can't gets tons of bass out of those things they are not setup right.


Edited by Conanski - 25 June 2017 at 4:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 5:34am
Only one channel of the crossover is being used so it's all mono.

To me those subs don't seem efficient as each pair of subs is run on a bridged mono QSC RMX-2450 amp and it doesn't seem enough at times.

I know pro audio subs won't go down to 30 Hz flat, but I know some have built DIY subs that do go that low or real close to it.

I know scoops have their issues but over the frequency range they were crossed over at (not sure the frequency) they sounded good to me.

The issue is these subs just don't seem to sound right unless playing hip-hop or any music with lots of bass and no amount of adjusting seems to make it any better.

Now me personally I prefer sealed sub cabinets but I know that won't work here.

Edited by Tube Radio - 25 June 2017 at 5:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simo69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 8:39am
8 x double 18" G-Subs or similar spread around the ring and run in mono (try to cover the whole circle of the ring). 
Hang a Mid/Hi box directly above each G-Sub and delay to time align with subs to the ear (due to the echo and reflections in the the venue).. possibly 10 G-Sub :-)





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 10:09am
Maybe the expectations are just too high. It's a huge empty room, without much absorption. In clubs/raves or live music venues there is a big, packed crowd that absorbs the bass and helps even out the sound. The rink however can never be really packed like that because everyone needs space to move about.... A very bad point of departure to get "fat bass".

to be honest, the best would be probably to fly the whole sytem, subs as well, that way subs and tops would be close to each other for good coupling. That way the subs would always be closer to the patrons than they are presently. You would need much less input power to achieve the same loudness in the middle of the room. You could make a mono cluster in the middle, or distribute them to 2 -4 positions close to the middle


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 11:51am
Without the rest of the stuff, which others are covering, forget this fixation with 30hz.
-3db at 40hz more than adequate.
You're the only one in there that will care or notice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tube Radio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 1:59pm
I agree flat to 30 Hz isn't necessarily possible unless of course a whole lot of money was spent.

I think an F3 of 30Hz is a more reasonable objective.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2017 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

To me those subs don't seem efficient as each pair of subs is run on a bridged mono QSC RMX-2450 amp and it doesn't seem enough at times..
Are the amps going into limiting? What is the actual crossover frequency? Technically that amp can do the job as configured but real world experience says it's marginal and much better results can be had with a more powerful amp running 1 cab per channel, or even double the number of amps so that they can each operate at 8ohms bridged.


Originally posted by Tube Radio Tube Radio wrote:

The issue is these subs just don't seem to sound right unless playing hip-hop or any music with lots of bass and no amount of adjusting seems to make it any better.


Well the other thing with this system is that those subs are paired with 8+1 tops, that would be considered inadequate by most here I think. So despite the fact that there are lots of them the system will be lacking weight and impact in the bass/mid range. yes you could run the subs higher but that never sounds right to me. And then add to that the fact that the tops are not co-located with the subs and the whole thing will sound very incoherent. I think part of the upgrade for this system should be upgrading the tops to 12's and clustering them over the subs.. maybe hang the clusters right up at the ceiling don't spread them out all over the place, that should help bring the sound together.


Edited by Conanski - 25 June 2017 at 4:15pm
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