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Suggested X over settings for 3 way rig!

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charlysays View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 August 2016 at 3:27pm
This is my first post in Advanced, I thought it best to post this here !

I've been building up a rig for a year or now and I think I'm at a point where it's sounding pretty amazing compared to what else is in the area.

Here's what I want to try and would like some suggestions on crossover frequencies and slopes:

4 X Cubo sub for infrabass/ low bass (Two are loaded with 18nlw9000, two 18nlw9400 all of them driven with a bit more than their AES)

4 X JBL Soundpower P744 (single JBL 2241G in each, cab probably tuned to 40 or 50hz) for use as kick. From what I can find out these should work fine up to 200hz.

2 X JBL SF25 2X15" 1"comp tops. These are definitely pretty useless at 100hz and below. They're not nice tops but they aren't the worst either and were basically free.

I'm running all this with an SAE PQM 13, two matrix UKP2100X (each one bridged into an 18nlw9000) and I have a berry EP2500a and a crest CA9 knocking around for tops or running the 2241Gs in stereo if need be etc.

My feeling is to run the cubo subs 30-80hz, JBL 2241s 80-150 (or 200), then the tops from 150-200 up to the usual 18khz.

Any suggestions for slopes and freq to dial into the ultradrive much appreciated :)

Cheers

Charlie
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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 5:37pm
4x Cubo sub : 30-35 Hz to 70-80 Hz each running of an SAE PQM channel
4x JBL P744 : 45 Hz to 100 Hz each running of a Matrix channel
2x JBL SF25 : 55-60 Hz to .... running of the EP-2500 or CA-9

The SF25's are not all that bad, the fifteens are pretty efficient down to about 60 Hz and they sound decent in mids. One woofer runs up to the crosspoint with the high driver, the other woofer is crossed lower, to keep vertical dispersion somewhat controlled. Simple way of doing things, but it works.
The 1" drivers are not bad sounding, but they lack big time in the top end. The easiest and cheapest way to get around this, is to add a simple supertweeter like a Beyma CP-16/CP-22 or the likes with a 6dB/oct passif HP filter around 8 kHz and a few dB attenuation to level match with the components of the SF25.

There are two reasons why I would use overlap in crossovers.
The first is cooling of the speakers. Speakers must move about when fed serious power or the voicecoils will burn pretty quick. No cone speaker is designed to be able to dissipate a lot of heat when almost standing still. Dedicated midspeakers are totally different animals in that regard, they are light, efficient and don't need alot of power to get to a certain SPL, they can't dissipate much heat and they don't need to because of that good efficiency.
Woofers like the 2241 and M115 (in SF25) can't take much power when crossed higher than what usually goes for bass cabinets. They where not designed to work that way. Read : not designed to be crossed at 80 - 150 - 200 Hz. The venting/cooling working just isn't there anymore.

The other reason is quadrupling SPL (+6 dB) when two systems are doing the same thing in a frequency region where you need it or at least where you probably could use it. P744's are designed to make lows down to 40-50 Hz, so why not make use of it to add to the overall SPL with the Cubo Subs and the same goes for SF25's, they go down to 60 Hz with autority, so again, let the P744's and SF25's share the work. It's less stress on amps and certainly on speakers.

In the end what frequency region each does and what slopes to use (6dB-12dB, 18dB, 24dB/oct), will be trying and testing to see what pleases you the most.


Edited by Peter Jan - 08 August 2016 at 5:41pm
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charlysays View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 5:49pm
I got ya... Thanks for the reply, really cleared a few things up for me! So big overlaps down low to keep the coils moving.

I built the cubo subs especially because they will work in the same band with reflex subs once you flip the cubos phase 180 degrees (though you wouldn't need to do this if you had the magnet in the chamber).
Done like this the bass is clear and defined and gets louder when you bring in the reflex subs so having a large overlap between the cubos and reflex will be no problem.

With regards which amps to use, the 18nlw9400 is well suited to having a pqm13 channel for each one, but the 18nlw9000 is an 1800w aes driver and is wasted with only 1300w, hence why I thought they'd be better used with a bridged ukp2100x for each one..?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 6:14pm
You'll only get more SPL/extra gain overlapping pass bands if the boxes are in phase for that entire passband. It could actually lead to a reduction in output if they are not aligned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2016 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:


I built the cubo subs especially because they will work in the same band with reflex subs once you flip the cubos phase 180 degrees (though you wouldn't need to do this if you had the magnet in the chamber).

How each behaves phasewise, is a function of where crossovers are situated and what slopes are used.
When you change either for any band, you have to phase-match and time-allign everything.
Unfortunately it's more than just to flip or not to flip phase 180°.

Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:


With regards which amps to use, the 18nlw9400 is well suited to having a pqm13 channel for each one, but the 18nlw9000 is an 1800w aes driver and is wasted with only 1300w, hence why I thought they'd be better used with a bridged ukp2100x for each one..?

There's very little to be gained SPL wise when feeding a more sturdy speaker some more power.
And also, thermal limits are one thing, mechanical limits are another. It's quite possible that the heftier speaker can't take as much power in a certain design. It might well be that the 18NLW9000 can take more, but still overall little to be gained if any.


Edited by Peter Jan - 08 August 2016 at 6:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2016 at 12:27am
I really don't see the need for reflex 18s in this setup, crossover from the cubos to the the Sf25s at 80hz LR24 and you're done. If you feel the system needs more weight in the low/mid first make sure you have phase/time alignment as optimal as possible through the crossover region and then try some EQ but failing all that just add more cubos. And yeah the pathetic little CD in the JBLs is all done at 12khz so if you want any sparkle at all swap it out for Selenium D210ti/220ti or add a super tweeter.


Edited by Conanski - 09 August 2016 at 12:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2016 at 10:22am
I'll do some more tests in the field one weekday. I did some when I built the first pair of cubos and found it got quiter when I brought in the reflex subs in the same band unless I flipped phase 180 degrees. With this done there was a noticeable increase in loudness and belly rumble.
Could it be that the phase response of a tapped horn vs reflex isn't that dissimilar? Both have a tuned chamber which dominates output low down and both radiate directly from the driver higher up in their range.

Generally though I agree that four heftily loaded cubos is more than enough for the tops to bass ratio. I just always want more lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2016 at 10:29am
Peter -

So basically the cubo has a certain output it can achieve and the cabinet won't make more above a certain point no matter how hard the drivers driven?

18nlw9000 has a 14mm Xmax and a 5" coil, 70mm xmech. 18nlw9400 a 9.5 mm Xmax on a 4" coil and 50 mm xmech.
With 1300 w I have heard the 9400 sound a bit fruity if a dj plays bass heavy music and hits the limiter.

There's little difference in sensitivity between the drivers so the 9000 will do a good job with even moderate power.
Surely making use of that extra 5mm of cone movement will result in almost a 3Rd more air being pumped?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2016 at 10:38am
Worth noting the Cubo isn't really a tapped horn, it's really more of a reflex box itself with a small horn element.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2016 at 3:08pm
I tried the 18nlw9000 today with 2.1kw each and allowed my clothing and hair to compare it to 2X 1300w from the PQM13... big difference. It's physically uncomfortable in my small-ish lockup and the building rattles a lot more with the extra 30% or so power.

I've been running the cubos alongside JBL reflex bins all year just by flipping the phase on the cubos 180 degrees (as the drivers have a different side visible from outside) and it sounds good- noticeably louder when you bring in the reflex subs, so I'll have a go with the above suggested 3 way settings.
Any phase issues that there were will then be less due to the two types of cab not running the entire same frequency. And I can then run the cubos down to 30hz :)


Edited by charlysays - 03 September 2016 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2016 at 11:01am
Peter Jan I Used your suggested settings on Friday for a 10pm til 3am rave night at a club with the matrix/ 18nlw9000 combo doing the low sub. It sounded better than it ever has and was literally making eyeballs rattle!
Rig sounded effortless all night :)
Will definitely run this setup from now on as I think it's the best way of using my cubo subs and reflex bins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2016 at 11:27am
Stick a Beyma CD10fe in those JBL's (on adapter). You wont be disappointed. I ripped the crossover out of mine, wired the 15's parallel and ran active. 15's up to 1.5k then the beymas. Sounded great
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