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The ultimate subwoofer

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chriller29 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 March 2013 at 4:52pm
I want to build some extreme subwoofers. But I can't find out which one to build.

The Turbosound TSW-124 with the PD. 2450  http://hornplans.free.fr/tsw124. - http://hornplans.free.fr/tsw124.html

Front-loaded PD 2150 horn  http://forum.speakerplans.com/21-inch-long-throw-horn_topic76037_page1. - http://forum.speakerplans.com/21-inch-long-throw-horn_topic76037_page1.html

The classic super-scooper 21"  http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=21superscooper - http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=21superscooper

Eighteensound 2 x 21" manifolded sub 
http://www.eighteen.com/static/applications/kits/18_kit_dual21_%20Prel.pdf - http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/18Sound_kit_dual21_%20Prel.pdf


Of cause i want the sound to be good, but I'm also looking to find the one with the most highest SPL. They will mostly be used for Techno and dance.

Is the horn outdated? 
And can the Eighteensound cabinet be used with PD 2150 instead?
Do i get an advantage with the 24", or is it only to improve the lover Hz <60?


Thank you! Smile


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mini-mad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2013 at 5:23pm
how many people you playing to?

high SPL at what given frequency band... sub bass or kick bass as techno isnt know for its crazy low bass.... how many are you building?.... do you care about how much they weigh?... how you transporting them?.... 

how big is your budget?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2013 at 5:25pm
Horns are not outdated; they never will be (despite what people wearing 70's trousers might tell you); however, it's important to remember that the majority of bass horns are designed with a mouth area only around 25-50% of what would be required to support full horn loading, because otherwise the box would be too big to move. So a single TSW124 would probably not work to its full potential, as typically bass horn users will stack up 2 to 4 cabinets to make one "complete" horn mouth being driven by multiple drivers. Indeed, a single cab might only offer about the same frequency response as a pair of 18" bass horns, which would either be lighter (if you use neo drivers) or cheaper (if you used ferrites)

you can check whether the 18sound cabinet will work with PD2150 by using the free WinISD software; enter the cabinet volumes, port details and the TS parameters of both drivers, and it will draw you a pair of response graphs you can compre directly.

24" drivers are probably best used for deep sub only, ie 60hz and below. I think you would need one with a very light cone (the PD has a normal weight cone, ie relatively heavy) to get the required "punch" for techno in the 63-80hz region. Or will this "ultimate sub" be used under another section of bass? 

Personally, I would just use twice as many 18" boxes instead. It's logistically simpler :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2013 at 5:35pm
One important thing to realise is with "extreme" subs, 21 or 24" isn't necessarily better for deep hard hitting low bass  than an 18", 15", or even 12" driver box (Lab sub for example uses 12" and does hard hitting bass down to 30hz)

Low frequency extension, max SPL, and amount of air movement (xmax) are the main things you need to compare for the ultimate sub. Cone size helps make more air movement, but you can get the same as a 21" driver with 2 15" ones which can be cheaper, more flexible, and potentially smaller box size (or split into halves for transportation), for the same output in almost every way, if not better because the 15" cones will be naturally punchier than the 21s.

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chriller29 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriller29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2013 at 9:01pm
They will be used only for the bigger jobs. 200+ people. And I will buy 4 units... So 4 horns or scoops, or 2 bandpass. 

The system is only 2-ways, and the mid/top is 8 x EV sx300, so the x-over will be around 100 Hz i think.

I have a trailer for transport, but i will have to drop stuff off over two times if I end up making the horns.........  But if the sound is that much better I'm of cause willing to do so! ;-)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2013 at 7:41am
The Eighteensound 2x21" bandpass design looks like a joke. 100dB PEAK sensitivity out of 2x 21" top end sub drivers? I'm sure it sounds wonderful but you'd have to feed it incredible amounts of power to get any realistic output from it, and really you should expect to achieve something a lot more special from such expensive sub drivers.

As far as sheer bass output and air movement goes, the difference you'd see between 4 of the horn or scoop designs you mentioned, versus the bandpass, would be incredible. You'd need approximately 10x as much amp power going into the bandpass as you would into the horns.

Before making any decision though you should really at least try and hear a real world example of at least a) A scoop bin, b) a folded horn, c) a bandpass cabinet

It shouldn't be too hard to track down something like all of the above, even if they're not a direct equivalent to the designs you're planning to build, because all 3 of these cabinets types have their own disinct character/sound, and will all have their own advantages/disadvantages depending on what type of music you want to play through them (Scoops good for dub/reggae, horns better for hard hitting dance/live sound, for example)

Edit: It should be noted I guess that a company that sells speaker components may be liable to recommend designs that are unnecessarily wasteful of drivers. The layman buying 2x 700 quid cones from Eighteensound only to build, "upon recommendation" an extremely inefficient but nice sounding cabinet with them could become their most valuable customer if they like it enough to buy the other 6 or 10 drivers they need to achieve the desired level of headroom.


Edited by Hemisphere - 16 March 2013 at 7:57am
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chriller29 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriller29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2013 at 11:11pm
Okay thank you Smile We forget the bandpass then, but I'm am still wondering how choose between the scoop and a front loaded horn. It is mostly disco (techno and dance) I play, but I'm also a very big fan of the ultra low bass the scoops delivers... Can the scoop still deliver the "hard hitting" bass from 60-100 just a little less than the F.L. horn, or is it just not useful for the "punch"? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2013 at 11:35pm
I'm a little concerned that you're talking about 'the ultimate subwoofer' but you're perching a disco full of EV SX300's on top of them...
Also - have you thought about your amp budget? You're gonna need some welly for a load of 21's / 24's etc....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote all bass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2013 at 11:51pm
I would suggest some BH-882 with the Levan extension. Pretty much one of the ultimate bass horns...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriller29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2013 at 12:05am
I have two Cerwin amps. Bridge 4 ohm 3000 watt RMS.. A pair of horn in each side and you'll have 150% power RMS off what you need :-)

Can't the EV keep up, or what do you mean? :-) Perhaps 4 x 15" horn for 100-200 hz would help? 

But now where you brought up amps. I have thought about the iNuke 6000, do you know anything about that one? :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2013 at 12:26am
Originally posted by chriller29 chriller29 wrote:

I have two Cerwin amps. Bridge 4 ohm 3000 watt RMS.. A pair of horn in each side and you'll have 150% power RMS off what you need :-)

Can't the EV keep up, or what do you mean? :-) Perhaps 4 x 15" horn for 100-200 hz would help? 

But now where you brought up amps. I have thought about the iNuke 6000, do you know anything about that one? :-)


I would advise that if you're building the ultimate sub, that you aim to have the ultimate in the rest of your components too. An iNuke, no matter how good value some people may think it is, has and will never be described as ultimate.

I've always thought of the EV's as wedding DJ speakers, or back room of a pub DJ stuff - not bad, they serve a purpose, but a little plastic cab will only be so useful. The fact you have 8 makes little difference - just having a wall of them to keep up with the over the top sub will sound horrible.

I don't mean to shit on your cornflakes, but building subs like that will cost you in other areas - to make them move, you're talking touring grade amps i'd say...

(someone will be along soon to say there are cheap alternatives which i'm sure there are - i've not used any to drive twin 21's tho)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriller29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2013 at 12:47am
Originally posted by dylan-penguinmedia dylan-penguinmedia wrote:

Originally posted by chriller29 chriller29 wrote:

I have two Cerwin amps. Bridge 4 ohm 3000 watt RMS.. A pair of horn in each side and you'll have 150% power RMS off what you need :-)

Can't the EV keep up, or what do you mean? :-) Perhaps 4 x 15" horn for 100-200 hz would help? 

But now where you brought up amps. I have thought about the iNuke 6000, do you know anything about that one? :-)


I would advise that if you're building the ultimate sub, that you aim to have the ultimate in the rest of your components too. An iNuke, no matter how good value some people may think it is, has and will never be described as ultimate.

I've always thought of the EV's as wedding DJ speakers, or back room of a pub DJ stuff - not bad, they serve a purpose, but a little plastic cab will only be so useful. The fact you have 8 makes little difference - just having a wall of them to keep up with the over the top sub will sound horrible.

I don't mean to shit on your cornflakes, but building subs like that will cost you in other areas - to make them move, you're talking touring grade amps i'd say...

(someone will be along soon to say there are cheap alternatives which i'm sure there are - i've not used any to drive twin 21's tho)

Okay, i get what you say..  Forget the "ultimate" part then... Right now I'm either building the 21" scoops or the 21" F.L. horn. The driver will be the PD 2150. They will be driven by the Cerwin amps which earlier has been used in systems with LAB.gruppen amps, and the former owner could not tell the difference. GOOD amps, no probs there. I only asked about the iNuke to hear what you knew, not because i was planning to buy one for the purpose... :-)

1. Can i make the system 3-way with a 12" or 15" sub for the "top bass" 100<, and keep my EV's?

2. What would you choose to bulid?

- thanks :-)
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