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TMS-3 + 186 Horn Delays

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Futendra View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: TMS-3 + 186 Horn Delays
    Posted: 09 March 2017 at 5:36pm
I have no equipment to calculate the delays, and I doubt I will be able to get it right by ear.
What are the best delay times for a TMS-3 in combination with a 186 Horn?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 7:25pm
Hi.

After many years of messing I came to the conclusion that the only real way to do this is by taking audio measurments.

Group delay can dramatically change the delay time required to align your two cabs. So much so that it will render phisical measurements of horn lengh useless.

It is well worth learning how to take phase measurements.

But for bass, you can get close with a DB meter or RTA and a set of sign waves.



Stack the the tms on top of 186 in a large space ideally outside.

Step 1.

Listen to the subs (play music you are familiar with) and pick your Hi and low pass points that you think sound right. Add EQ to the OUTput channel if needed.

Step 2

Listen to the kick section and set your low pass as per manufacturer specification and the hi pass to where you think sounds good. Add EQ to the output channel if needed.

Tips. To make life easy dont run an overlap between the 186 and the TMS3. If you set the low pass on the 186 @ 100Hz, set the hipass on TMS3 to 100Hz. Use 24dB Butterworth slopes to start with, but don't be afraid to play around. Avoid adding EQ to the crossover region.

Step 3
Once you have the individual cabs somewhere near where you want them sound wise. Its time to try and combine them.

Pick a sine wave in the middle of the crossover (100Hz in the above example) play at a moderate level (sine waves can overheat drivers if played too loud.

1. Take an spl reading of the sub on its own.
2. Turn the tms kick section on and take anouther reading of thrm playing together.

If its louder you are within 90 degrees of phase.
If its quieter you are more than 90 degrees out of Phase.
If it stays the same you are 90 degrees oue of phase.


You are aiming to get as close to +6dB with the two cabs running as you can.

Step 4.

Delay and repeat. Add some delay (hard to say which cab will need the delay between the 186 and the TMS. (186 has longer horn but group delay tends to increase at the buttom of a cabs frequency range). So pick one and add some delay. And re-test.

If it get louder, you are heading in the right direction.
If it gets quieter you are delaying the wrong cab.

Keep going untill the level starts going down again, at this point back up a bit.

You will now be approximately in phase*.
If you are not happy with the sound, adjust the x-over and or eq. You will probably need to rejust the delay.

Note: save these settings. Do not change the x-over or EQ setting on the channel outputs as this will change the phase response. You can use the input eq if you need to correct for the room.

*Some notes
This method only gives approximate alignment.
This method wont tell you if your 360 degrees out of phase.

You need to be extremely methodical to use tgia method. But it is possible to get workable results.

I hope that this was understandable and you find it helps.

Sol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2017 at 4:24pm
Would  a Digital Sound 8928 suffice for SPL readings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2017 at 4:56pm
Yep that should work.

Let me know if you have any questions about this method.


Note on the 186, i think the recommended hipass is 40hz for a block of 4+, 45hz for 3, 50hz for 2.

But someone else may confirm that for you.


If at some point you can get hold of a microphone and sound card. Download a 30 day demo of smart and try setting up for measuring phase. This is what you need For proper accuracy. But there is a bit work and knowledge needed to get useful measurments and knowing what to do with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2017 at 5:43pm
Your HPF shiuld be the same regardless of number of boxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2017 at 6:16pm
We will have eight 186 horns, so we should be able to reach 40Hz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2017 at 8:27pm
With more front loaded horns in stack excursion at same power per box is lower.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutchman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2017 at 10:58pm
Don't think 186 horns will get to 40hz. Even in very big blocks. 
We need more SPL!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Futendra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2017 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Dutchman Dutchman wrote:

Don't think 186 horns will get to 40hz. Even in very big blocks. 

What do you think will be the frequency reach? Is it safe to play sine waves through them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2017 at 10:49am
Depends on frequency.
Here is rough idea how to cut FL horns"on sinewaves"

(Its not 186)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2017 at 11:42am
Playing sine waves for test purposes, to be safe do this at low to medium levels.

Its just that is quite easy to overheat a driver using a sine wave, esspically if its a frequency that doesn't produce much cone movement.

It doesn't need to be loud for the purpose of cabinet alignment, using the method I described above.


Low cut, I always thought it was around 40Hz for a block of 4 186s, but I may well be wrong, best get advice from someone who uses them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2017 at 11:51am
Taking a look at Turbo docs for TMS3, and acquiring LMS settings, from a Turbo LMS, for the TMS3, might be a start. Wink
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