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Kobe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 July 2015 at 10:45am
been providing a fairly basic band PA ( 2x sub+tops, 6 way monitors , 20ish channels) and a few PAR cans lighting for a folk festival for a number of years, the festival is held in a village hall holding about 300 seated but with some decent touring acts , I tend to charge about £4-500 including 2 techs all day.
 
this year the requirements have jumped up considerably and pushing my equipment to the limits - looking at about 8 bands , 12pm-11pm , headline act are looking for 32 channels and 13 way monitor mix (my LS9 will just cope ) .
I'm a bit stumped on what to charge .
 
cheers
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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£400-500 doesn't cover for two techs, let alone a rig.

I'm doing a mini festival on Saturday. 6 mon mixes, 6K FOH, GLD112, some LED, about 20Ch of source, 4 way radio mics. Me and a YTS kid helper. And 10KVA genset and distro. For three band acts, and an afternoon of poetry and readings. Event 2pm-10pm. On site at 8.30am....

I, based on them paying in full, up front, allowed a discount down to £1700 inc VAT. And that, to my mind, is cheap, but my second pair of hands is doing it for experience (although I will stick him a living wage for his efforts)
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Points: 5482 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 11:04am
Yarr, but that's quite a discrepancy of equipment between the 2 gigs and something tells me you have factored in an awful lot of overheads which the original quote has not. £4-500 could cover 2 techs for a day if you don't care about equipment depreciation and all those other pesky overheads. I don't know if the OP is doing this as a proper registered company or just on a part time favours basis. I'm going to assume by being stumped on what to charge it is probably the latter so a bit of an apples to oranges comparison if so.

But anyways I guess you should just work out what you'll need to sub hire, how many extra work hours the gig entails, add 20% for extra stress of double the bands and half the soundcheck time. Are they selling more tickets or is the total headcount the same. If it isn't worth the stress then I just wouldn't do it, no other professional would for that budget.
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azlan View Drop Down
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1700 does seem cheap for that Matt.

To answer kobe,it really depends on the quality of the gear,of you a actually need to proffit from it and how much gear you need to sub in.

If I were you, I would price up how much it would cost you to outsource the whole gig (so to sub in the kit, you would be looking at ~£100 for an ls9-32, 10-40/speaker depending on quality, similar for amps, £5-50 a mic, extra for any rf), add on a sensible day rate for you and your assistant (a lot if the guY's I work for would be charging £500+ just for the 2 technicians). Add in fuel, sustanace and trucking costs, as well as a bit extra to cover the sales process and prep day. Then add a bit extra to that to cover actually making a proffit.

Once all that is out of the way, I would be pricing up a second sound desk, set of splits and a monitor engineer for the day, as 13 mixes sounds like a massive pain in the arse to do from front of house (I would be paying an experienced mon's guy to look after that for me).

Now take that number to the client (I doubt they would get any change from 3-4k), and watch them freak out, and negotiate down from there.

11 hours of actual music probably translates to an 8am start minimum, and being a out the door around midnight/1am, which for a freelancer makes it a definate day and a half, meaning it would cost you at least £300 for a tech for the day, meaning you would be overnight just on techs at the original price
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Points: 5699 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacethebase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 11:55am
Surely a 13 way monitor mix would cost more than £500 to hire in alone? Will a LS9 cope with a 13 way monitor mix plus FX returns, FOH L-R etc?
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azlan View Drop Down
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Points: 364 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azlan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Surely a 13 way monitor mix would cost more than £500 to hire in alone? Will a LS9 cope with a 13 way monitor mix plus FX returns, FOH L-R etc?


If it's a 32, then just about, they have the main lr mix, a mono mix, 16 busses (aux/sends/subs), 32 local inputs (plus another 32 over dante is possible) and 4 stereo returns.

The problem he is going to have is that the busses have to be assigned in pairs, so he will need to have 14 pre fade busses, only leaving 2 post fade busses for fx sends, as well as having no spare busses to use as subgroups, no e-scribble strips and no vcas

The bigger issue is that you cant get enough graphics, assuming 2 fx returns (1 rev and 1 dly),you could get 12 of the 'mini graphics' or 6 full 31 band graphics, although there is still a 4 band parametric on each bus

Edited by azlan - 02 July 2015 at 12:13pm
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mini-mad View Drop Down
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I think this job has been over complicated.... either the bands dont know what they need or you making it more difficult then it needs to be.

I would hand them a fairly large invoice and hope they "out-source" as it sounds like your gonna need a crew to keep this in check and you desk is just scraping what you think you need.

I would rethink what you believe you need in a desk.
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
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What price is typically charged for sub hire? Do you get discount on the list dry hire price?
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by azlan azlan wrote:

1700 does seem cheap for that Matt.
Yeah, a bit on the cheap side, but:

1) Technically a one man deploy and operate, it is that straightforward.
1a) Chance to try out a bloke who is interested in joining company.
1b) Gives me an excuse to have bought, and get experience on, my new GLD112
2) On my Doorstep, relatively speaking, possibly 20min travelling each way.
3) I haven't done a band for too long. Far too much corporate conference work is dulling my edge!
4) Seemed like a giggle, and they have a bar right next to FOH.
5) I fancied it, and it was a clear weekend.
6) My only sub hired cost is the genset + diesel, but put 100% margin on it, to cover that hassle.

On meeting client, she said we were the most expensive, but we had been recommended by 2 of the acts performing. If we could make a gesture on price (worked out as £130+VAT discount), she would book us. She has, and she has paid up front. And also she was really nice, highly educated (Dr of History), and I didn't want her paying someone else a bit less, and ending up with just a pair of SRM450 on FOH, and some pony berry desk.

Saying that, I did something with far less kit a few weekends back, turning a bare hall into a theatre, and 5 shows, £4K + VAT. 2 crew to build and remove, but only one to run shows.

You do have to quote accordingly. Corporates are money, mostly because you will be shoving lots of bodies on it. However, a charitable based Band Festival hasn't got the budget, but is less pressure, compared with a corporate. And only requires one body.
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by +/-3dB +/-3dB wrote:

What price is typically charged for sub hire? Do you get discount on the list dry hire price?
Depends how much you spend with the hire co.

If you sub hire, or cross sub hire, then a bigger margin. If you use them once a year, for a couple of extra microphones, you won't get much discount from list.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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p.j. View Drop Down
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13 monitor mixes sounds like they're bringing a whole bunch of stereo in-ears. What band is it?
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Points: 7685 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shagnasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2015 at 2:13pm
There is another way too look at the this, 300 people, surely £5 a head what is the show, is not un-reasonable...
 
Personally, I have given up "FOH @ £40/stack, mons @ £40/mix, desks, Truck (with 13 mons mixes you will need a truck unless you are using something VERY light (13 SRM-450s would be 200KG uncased), fuel and labour...
 
But I would say an LS9 @ 32ch has no chance of 13 mons mixes the thing will slow down to treacle and only a mad man would attempt 13 mixes off FOH, so that mean you need a mons desk, and unless you are Ehtersounded up you then need a 'core with a splitter on it.
 
Look at the ticket price and ask yourself is the guy in the real world?
 
8 name bands is a 300 cap venue with that amount of infrastructure is a bit daft IMHO..
 
Also with 8 bands you will need 3 decent people, Mons, Stage and FOH with the stage tech being capable of jumping on either desk so you can eat/get a drink and take piss.
 
To my head, £5/head, £1500 would be a giveaway price....
 
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