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efinque View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote efinque Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Back to what should be common sense really, right tool for the job, and LA is just one tool.

According to the band a city full of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:


He also mentions that most small theatres don't have fly points for line arrays anyway, so point source is easier to move from venue to venue.
Its no point to mount it on height of the heads either. If you want even coverage it has to be far from audience. So placement reflects coverage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Saying all that, nice article in LSI this month about point source still being relevant.

Admittedly, bit of a puff piece about Autograph, using KV2, doing some tours to "provincial" theatres, but it is the LSI mag!

However to quote p22 of LSIonline Jan 2019 edition:
Originally posted by Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show wrote:

It sounds a bit old-school, but in reality, if there's a part of the room that we need to cover, we install a loudspeaker, and point it there - it just works.


He also mentions that most small theatres don't have fly points for line arrays anyway, so point source is easier to move from venue to venue.

Back to what should be common sense really, right tool for the job, and LA is just one tool.


Autograph aren't the only ones talking about it
https://www.psneurope.com/business/danley-sound-labs-uk-plans?fbclid=IwAR0HHf536S7GQMfRzE6delCMs-kiqMhnGFv1CGuyBx-q9g3K53H6xa014BA

And I get you on the RCF, it's a tool for sure, and it doesn't sound bad, and the rigging is pretty slick / invisible which sadly is what matters more to most events than the overall tonal quality.

Flexibility makes more business sense even if it doesn't make much sonic sense.

Since we're talking about the HDL6A, how about we look at some data? All single box, driven with AES Broadband signal:

Horizontal isobar


Vertical isobar


Transfer function


Horizontal off axis freq response deviation


Same but vertical


Directivity index


Max SPL (although it seems they have entered max SPL data as sensitivity and vice versa in the GLL file, curious if that's a trick to make plots look better in Focus 3...)



Make your own conclusions as to the effectiveness of the horn and how well the box complies with it's stated nominal dispersion or line array theory. I'd be applying a LPF at 16KHz myself, to avoid that splashiness above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:


granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy

That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  The harmonic design system was demonstrated with one and 2 tops per side on, and I thought it sounded noticeably worse with both on.  I was surprised how much one speaker punched above its weight, but I didnt think it sounded better than the J3. The only other acoustic memory I have from those days was that the funktion one demo had really loud subs compared to everyone else but their tops sounded like garbage.

The purpose of my video was to demonstrate how the danley speakers held up over distance and how much quieter they were behind the stack/hangs, since such videos were not common
System sounded so bad that i even called Mike Heden (Danley's owner) to tell him to do something about it because people were reacting very bad to the sound.
There is a talk about this here on the forum from that time. It wasnt only me but pretty much everyone i talked with at the show.
The SPL limmits are set, but they are measured A weighted, which means you can push the subs as loud as you like to. Hence you comment on the F1 demo. They are shaking the entire area every year. So that is not an excuse.


F1 stage was in the the inner yard, the other demo stage was close to a hotel, which ironically I assume was full of trade fair attendees, anyway. My understanding was that the danley stage still had something like 16 dB headroom and one of the demo ops said they had to turn down their subs.

The last I had done the outdoor demo stage walk was over 10 years ago, which was when it was in the middle of having sex nowhere except close to houses where people lived next to the trade fair grounds, so was surprised at the amount of bass F1 was allowed to push, especially because none of the other systems in the inner yard pushed their bass that much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:40pm
Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue:

16k


8k


6.3k


4k


1k


315hz


Anybody see any kind of cylindrical wavefront effect in play? At what frequencies? Not a trick question, I'm genuinely asking if someone can point out where you get only 3dB loss per doubling of distance. Feel free to recreate the sim yourself, it's just using free EASE Focus 3 and the data on RCF's site.

So to all those people who say the inter-box interactions aren't that noticeable, look at the plan view, and the side view. Now imagine you have important audience members in some of those nulls.

Or, imagine that there's a reflective, concrete wall behind the stage, and a tin roof above, at the height the sim stops. Check out the spurious side lobes that come in hard at 6.3KHz and again at 4KHz. The rear beam and side lobes at the midrange. How nice would your mix be in a difficult venue, let alone with open mics roaming in the space?

This is my main issue, they're useful tools but there are clear flaws that have serious impact in the real world. But of course, smoothed measurements, broad views of multiple octaves, filtered stimulus all makes this less obvious, and often a sim and design isn't even done, it's just thrown up and the boxes aimed roughly where the crowd are.

For what it's worth, I never, ever use autosplay for a real gig, but many, many people do.


Also sorry Matt, I'm not picking on you or your new baby, it was just a box at the forefront of my mind and RCF actually share data in an easy to find place

Edited by toastyghost - 10 January 2019 at 2:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Also sorry Matt, I'm not picking on you or your new baby, it was just a box at the forefront of my mind and RCF actually share data in an easy to find place


None taken, don't worry!

And, as you mention, the RCF data is freely published by them, and it does reflect what you hear.

As you also said, flexibility and ease/cleverness of rigging was really important, even to the detriment of sound. And, what I paid per box was silly cheap!

However, in their defence, you should do the same EASE work with some of the competition! I did, and they were even more horrific.

I presume the 800Hz horizontal drop out is a function of the 6" drivers being 300mm apart, but the HF horn comes in from 900 Hz. Perhaps they should have got it to work lower?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:00pm
Oh trust me, I've done the same sims and real world measurements with plenty I'd advise anyone looking at using, let alone buying, an array to do the same.

My main issue with this sort of tiny box is the HF horn is really only working like a line array horn from 8k to 16k. Below that it's into normal point source horn territory, with all the comb filtering you'd expect, unless you go for extreme angles that then mess up the lower frequencies.

Edited by toastyghost - 10 January 2019 at 3:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

For what it's worth, I never, ever use autosplay for a real gig, but many, many people do.

Agree on autosplay being a bit mewh.

Tend to use it for first guess, and then fiddle to see what changes as angles change, and then do my own "iterations". As ever, it is about adjusting until the compromises are optimised to real life.

Funny you picked 315Hz as one of your lobe pictures, my first use was just a couple on sticks and EASE did predict the lobe aimed directly at mic at 315Hz, and, on site, it was there! Forewarned was forearmed, so no great issue, and gave me some faith that the EASE data was true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:34pm
Basicly looking at this there is no chance you would get as huge tonal variation from well design horns sprayed by each other (f1 style spraying).
Are you sure they are properly tilt? How with the manual positioning?

Notice on the second post tonal variety on 1khz. On the view from the top you can clearly see the centre of spl on audience is moved from another frequency sims. 
This:

Is unweighted. Keep in mind 0db on axis to keep it into perspective that for it you still need dsp work.

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


My main issue with this sort of tiny box is the HF horn is really only working like a line array horn from 8k to 16k. Below that it's into normal point source horn territory, with all the comb filtering you'd expect, unless you go for extreme angles that then mess up the lower frequencies.
What could be better hf waveguide choice for this splaying? This one clearly has issues around 1k and under 2.5k
Or things would change with better manual splaying?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:42pm
F1 style spraying: 2 bottom ones splayed 40deg give the top one:
1 colour is 2db.
Its intended bandwidth is up to 2.4khz. Higher you would have to deal with hf horns.


Edited by gen0me - 10 January 2019 at 8:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote efinque Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue

Cool.. are those measurements/graphs hard to take?

I mean, do you need a special measurement mic to plot from several positions or something?


Edited by efinque - 10 January 2019 at 8:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 8:47pm
hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.

These issues occur on ALL line arrays, but at different frequencies depending on box size, arrangement, J curve and line length.

efinque: the data is a simulation calculated from GLL balloon data, which is a full 360 degree measurement of magnitude, phase and impulse taken using a single mic in one position, and the speaker rotated in all directions in one degree increments using a robot arm. Usually done in full anechoic or semi-anechoic environment, with the latter being a windowed measurement.

To be really effective at the entire range of stated frequencies a line array HF horn just needs to be really, really deep. Like more than a metre deep.

Edited by toastyghost - 10 January 2019 at 8:48pm
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