Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 12 line array cab plan
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

12 line array cab plan

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 13>
Author
Message
fatfreddiescat View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 15 October 2010
Location: N.E.Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 715
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue

Cool.. are those measurements/graphs hard to take?

I mean, do you need a special measurement mic to plot from several points or something?


Those graphs are using data in the form of 'ease' files which are supllied by the manufacturer so users can model the acousti c response of different arrays to work out what would work for their needs.The graphs can only be as accurate as the data provided ther efore measurements would normally be done with a reference grade measurement mic, the amount of data to be collected is not insubstantial, I have not persoanally looked at the criteria but would frequency response and phase response at multiple positions over a 360 sphere around the loudspeaker if I'm not mistaken.

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare, at 1Khz likely to be the 2 * 6” drivers narrowing due to spacing as full width of the cabinet is a radiating surface around the xover frequency.
Back to Top
gen0me View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 20 February 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 978
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.
Dsp in terms of eq which is the same on each box? Or dsp as applied delays to boxes, or even doing fft on every box input, and using linear phase filters. Composing frequencies back from fft with different delay applied.
First one?
Im curious how far can go the second one.

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare
See that 8" flare dont have it in its usefull bandwitch or rather it can be equed flat independently from listeners position.
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
Mixes: https://www.mixcloud.com/gen-ome/
Back to Top
fatfreddiescat View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 15 October 2010
Location: N.E.Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 715
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.
Dsp in terms of eq which is the same on each box? Or dsp as applied delays to boxes, or even doing fft on every box input, and using linear phase filters. Composing frequencies back from fft with different delay applied.
First one?
Im curious how far can go the second one.

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare
See that 8" flare dont have it in its usefull bandwitch or rather it can be equed flat independently from listeners position.

Not possible to eq it flat if it's due to the waveguide geometry, if it's due to filter/phase interaction then maybe possible to do something with dsp.
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:28pm
Default EQ which is the same on each box, and some factory presets for some generic hangs I would assume.

At this level of box I’ll be very, very surprised if anyone is remotely deploying it in close coupled coherent sections, each with their own filtering, independently measured.

Typically on a ‘proper’ system you break the hang into three or more clusters, aiming at specific parts of the audience, and sharing inter-box angles. You can then measure each ‘cluster’ and treat it as one box.

Often EQ does very little here, because it will make other issues worse at other positions, and it has a serious law of diminishing returns. In fact it’s often better to drop the hang and change angles based on new predictions and verification.

However some careful allpass placement or delay can help, but again, you need to measure in minimum three positions, on axis. When you’re happy, you verify off axis, and copy to the other hang.

The funny thing is, at this point, you’re actively trying to reduce the tonal variance in response because of HF absorption, LF buildup, and the inconsistent ‘cylindrical wavefront’ behaviour. Which means you basically push them back closer to a vertical hang of big point source ‘boxes’. So why not just use big, true point source boxes in the first place, rather than this mish mash of different design components?

The other issue is, how much time do you have on a real gig to do this? With shorter load in times, most gigs needing sound checks for multiple bands, and other people working on light, screen, etc? Let alone shows with more than a left and right. This is why so many people whack the boxes up by eye, or at best, spend ten minutes in the prediction software. Particularly at the level of smaller, cheaper cabinets. E.g. smaller than 1500 cap.

Hence the drive to preshow design and FIR calculation with uploads to the boxes on site. FIRmaker, etc all do this, and rely on good venue and box measurements. Very few are verified properly in the field, the tech is trusted, and frankly, the work of the algorithm is kind of beyond a field measurement anyways. Which makes more and more ‘engineers’ become operators, really, which is a fundamental problem.

Edited by toastyghost - 10 January 2019 at 10:30pm
Back to Top
smitske96 View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 16 February 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 384
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 Very few are verified properly in the field, the tech is trusted, and frankly, the work of the algorithm is kind of beyond a field measurement anyways. Which makes more and more ‘engineers’ become operators, really, which is a fundamental problem.

+1
Back to Top
mini-mad View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 13 July 2012
Location: london
Status: Offline
Points: 6892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mini-mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 1:53am
If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.
Back to Top
Conanski View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 26 January 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:03am
Even better...


Back to Top
concept-10 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 17 May 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 842
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 7:12am
Perfect Smile
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Even better...




Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
gen0me View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 20 February 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 978
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:41am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Typically on a ‘proper’ system you break the hang into three or more clusters, aiming at specific parts of the audience, and sharing inter-box angles. You can then measure each ‘cluster’ and treat it as one box. 
What about those lobes?
Or do they disappear on longer arrays?

PS. Here are conditions from 4*8 I used for impulse response:
Black dots are the listeners. Not every listener is on the chart. On picture above distance between 1 dot is 1m. Z is distance on the chart.


Edited by gen0me - 11 January 2019 at 10:30am
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
Mixes: https://www.mixcloud.com/gen-ome/
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 10:37am
I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

However, whether you have Vdosc deployed, or something naff deployed really as best it can be, you can see that LA is not the magic bullet it is sold as.

My own choice was mostly down to flexibility, multipurposeness/convenience of box, and sound quality was down the list - I am not proud or recommend it, but just being honest. It was also a silly price! I reckon with some feckin' about I can get a "good enough" sound so that the average punter is happy, but by cutting back on labour/transport costs, I can keep promoter/client happy as well.

A point source set-up would probably sounded better, Martin H3T+ over 218+, or equivalent, but I would always need a second pair of hands for lifting and shifting, which, at my runt end of the market, budget does not always allow for.

In short, I get paid. I'm a whore, but truthfully, who isn't? We all have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and at some point I wouldn't mind a nice holiday, or a new(er) car...

However, as Toasty as eluded to, even he is effectively using LA as clusters/arrays of point sources!

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

*Retires from lit touch paper, and hides in bunker*
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:13am
gen0me: those lobes are in the domain of the waveguide and where it loses pattern control (900Hz to 8KHz) so the angle will change based on line length and curvature, but they will always be present. The resolution is not fine enough to see but there are many more cancellations in between boxes, at various distances and positions. This is why you get the ‘swishy’ sound.

Honestly play for yourself, EASE Focus 3 is free and so are the data files. It’s super easy to use and you can compare to many many boxes, TW Audio, DAS, even Void use it.

The bigger guys have software that doesn’t do explicit side views (Sound Vision) or uses coarse resolution of 1m blocks (ArrayCalc) só you’ll never see it there... MAPP XT does however, and well, look at how bad the HF waveguide was in some of the pre LYON arrays from Meyer. MINA is a shotgun above 10k!

Matt: not just me pal, this approach is taken from the full four day Meyer course, Merlijn van Veen’s courses, the documentation for MLA and Anya, same for ArrayProcessing by d&b, and one of AFMG FIRmaker’s target goals (albeit better explained by the K Array documentation).

Also, I totally get it. Our most profitable and most busy boxes are by far YAMAHA actives. Second to that is the SM80, which is a 12” coaxial on a massive bowl.

The more ‘real’ line arrays out there are the stupidly huge columns from JBL, K Array and Renkus Heinz, but those are focused on beam steering and are also very expensive. The RH sounds lovely to my ears but it’s so much cash!

And on that note, have a read of this, download the PDF and listen to the embedded recordings within it of column speakers in a church:
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2015/07/31/tectonic-loudspeakers-at-techny-towers/

Use good headphones. There are three or two front runners to my ears, and one of them isn’t a line array, and costs about a third of the others.

Edited by toastyghost - 11 January 2019 at 11:16am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 13>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.