Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 12 line array cab plan
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

12 line array cab plan

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 13>
Author
Message
Racks&Stacks View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 10 February 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 144
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:48am
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?
Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8759
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.


Actually I'm struggling to find it, so I may be efin' up.

I know I did hear one, at a cabaret venue of a hotel in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, 4 PS15 a side, landscape, flown "Arrayed" with what looked like "proper" rigging. On my return from holiday, looked it up and found it, but now can find no reference to it, apart from on Alibaba....

Ignore me, having one of those days...already. I can still taste the toothpaste FFS.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!



Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?


Actually the VERO is far from a line array nor tries to be one. It is a wide point source box, that happens to hang vertically. It’s essentially two EVO mid axeheads flanking a vertical stack of two or three ‘standard’ HF horns, depending on whether you’re talking about the 60 degree wide or the 90 degree wide box.

They call it ‘geometric energy summation’ but that seems to be branding for shoving an axe head like fin between each horn’s exit as you move down the row vertically.

They also insert the triple 15” kick section every so many boxes to break up the hang.

Unfortunately there is no public data for the boxes, so I can’t verify how much comb filtering there is, but given Tony’s other designs in the past, I would wager it has a bunch because he seems to think it’s relatively unimportant and in fact, the EVO measurements in Peoduction Partner indicate that it’s part of the design to smooth out the dispersion when you use two or three boxes. You can see that on the isobars where the horns narrow in coverage as they move down in frequency.

That said, out of the box they do sound very nice on the mid and high. The lows, not so much. I’ve never been a huge fan of BPH and don’t think I ever will be.

The boxes are not magic still, and benefit from similar treatment and measurement as any other. The best EVO deployments I’ve heard used allpass and more even in a smaller pineapple. VERO I’ve heard three times and each was hit and miss from set to set but it was early days.

Again, this is a step in the right direction to me and I think it could be great - I would love to deploy it myself sometime to find out. But I still would rather use a better point source, a true point source in fact, and maybe 3 or 4 in a hang in total. Fewer sources, fewer interference problems. Better behaved sources, with pattern control across their ENTIRE passband, not just a tiny fragment, and fewer problems again...

The real world needs multiple boxes. I don’t deny that. But it shouldn’t need as many as you have to hang in a typical good line array deployment, and it should need less work, and sound better. It’s been over 20 years, and VDOSC launched around 20 years from the start of ‘real’ tours with various point source boxes.

The funny part is the big guys sort of know this, and they have their own projects on the go from what I’ve been told. But they don’t want to cannibalise the huge sales of 64+ boxes at once they currently have, and nor do the driver manufacturers - just think how much B&C’s pockets grow every time d&b sell a GSL or KSL rig, with its minimum box count and buy in! Hell, the d&b V7p and V10p is about as close to a Synergy style design as you can get without actually making one
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

But they don’t want to cannibalise the huge sales of 64+ boxes at once they currently have, and nor do the driver manufacturers...[/IMG]

We are all just trying to make a living! And shareholders aren't content with same profit as last year, they want a growth in profit...

But, to misquote one of Mr Andrews goto quotes, one of the most fundamental problems with making sound waves is the fecking transducers. He will readily tell you that a 20% efficient driver would kill you!

His anecdote glosses over the fundamental problem. Waggling bits of cardboard at, what is after all quite stiff and massy but yet slippery and wafty, air, is bloody stupid, and leads to huge inefficiencies.

We go to all this effort to get these sodding bits of paper to "couple" to the air column in front of it, by all manor of esoteric means, and have to have so many different devices to do 10 octaves, as any one solution is only really good for 2-3 octaves max, causing negative interactions with the octaves above and below. To quote BFM:

Quote ClusterF*ck


If we could find some better way of creating sound waves, more efficiently, and do it from a single transducer from say 40Hz to 18KHz, most other issues go away!

Answers on a postcard...
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:20pm
You know there’s a box design that when complete, measures as a single source of sound or essentially as a single driver, in that passband you ask for, and can pretty accurately produce a square wave, yeah?


And the growth thing is true, which is why d&b, who are arguably the biggest supplier in the world, have been changed ‘ownership’ from investment bank to investment bank multiple times in the past 5 years. It isn’t sustainable to think people will keep buying million quid plus systems every two to three years, and the quality of sound suffers as a result. I don’t doubt there’s sonically better tech sitting there, languishing in R&D on a back shelf because it doesn’t make business sense.

Most importantly though, Slippery and Wafty is an excellent name for a double act.

Edited by toastyghost - 11 January 2019 at 4:22pm
Back to Top
gen0me View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 20 February 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 978
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 4:47am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Actually the VERO is far from a line array nor tries to be one. It is a wide point source box, that happens to hang vertically. It’s essentially two EVO mid axeheads flanking a vertical stack of two or three ‘standard’ HF horns, depending on whether you’re talking about the 60 degree wide or the 90 degree wide box.
 

From my sims so far looks like using multiple drivers in one horn will help sort some of the problems. For example look at any single driver mid horn. A lot of them suffers around 1-2khz from narrowed dispersion(efficiency). If you try to make wide dispersion horn this will be more prominent. Its also obviously solution to pattern flip. And it would allow for better expansion profiles. They ofc cant use them vertically for a pattern flip thing but at this frequencies the stack would really have to be long for those lobes as in sims from previous pages. To be fair im not sure if those lobes would even work this way as horns may not allow wave to spread like this.


Edited by gen0me - 12 January 2019 at 5:37am
I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
Mixes: https://www.mixcloud.com/gen-ome/
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 10:24am
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

...multiple drivers in one horn...

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

...there’s a box design that when complete, measures as a single source of sound...


Danley? Jericho and synergy et al? Love the quote on the Caleb spec sheet:
Originally posted by Danley Danley wrote:

... which makes the Caleb a fairly simple product to assemble and install.


It is 2000lb. But at least it comes in 4 sections for ease of getting it through doors and up stairs...

My point is that the flappy bits of paper are still the weak point, and requires significant ply and fibreglass to encourage coupling to air. And someone of Danley's mind to harmonise them all together...

Didn't Danley also do the servodrive transducer - someone seeing the pisspoor nature of the transducer being a serious issue, and trying something different about it. Still flapping bits of paper though. Modern bits of flappy paper have now exceeded the capability of that particular solution, but design of transducer was early 80's, and nothing has really been done since?

So yes, a Caleb does 40Hz-18KHz, 160db @1m peak, but does it from 12 x 18", 32 x 8" and 64 x 1" and from 40KW of 8 channels of amp. But it still uses waggling bits of paper, with huge amounts of ply to get those bits of paper to excite the air in front of the cabinet.

I'm not knocking that, it really is an amazingingly clever solution, and the amount of traditional LA and subs to achieve equivalent would weigh more, and be harder logistics, if all told - however, it is just still using bits of waggly paper.

Imagine what Danley could do with an improved transducer, and then apply ply and fibreglass - he has done with the BT7 way back when, when conventional drivers were no match to the servodrive transducer.

M Drive is an attempt, but it still "waggling paper" (well rigid plastic), just with a trick motor. Danley's servodrive was still a trick motor, waggling bits of paper.

Edited by MattStolton - 12 January 2019 at 10:25am
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 12:46pm
I hear you, and I would love to see it, but that actually goes against his ethos. He prefers to use standard(ish) off the shelf parts that are commonly and readily available, to keep costs reasonable and allow for simple maintenance. There’s no secret as to what drivers live in what boxes, and only two in the entire line need to be bought direct from HQ simply because they have a MoQ from the manufacturer.

For example, the J5 is 12x B&C 18NW100-8, 32x Faital 6PR150-8, and 64x B&C DE400-16.

Isn’t that a little refreshing after rebadged, stupidly expensive ‘OEM’ versions of common drivers in many boxes? Look at the cost d&b charge for a replacement GSL driver kit

M-Force is indeed an attempt to rekindle the Servodrive idea, and considering the original thing went out with U2, Jacko and Happy Monday’s, I can kinda see why. I have however asked about it repeatedly and the short answer is that they can beat the performance using multiple standard drivers for a fraction of the cost and less risk of being buggered if something fails in the field. Remember the belts used to perish in harsh tour locations on BT7, especially since the engineers would turn it up and up due to low distortion compared to the reflex of the time, and then suddenly smell burning rubber.
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Isn’t that a little refreshing after rebadged, stupidly expensive ‘OEM’ versions of common drivers in many boxes?

Very, and fits with his apparent ethos.

He does seem to be very open with his designs. Why people buy them rather than make them, is the designs are so damned involved, so clever in the X-Overs, etc, that most people realise fairly quickly that their version wouldn't be close!

Sort of Tesla-esque. Almost open resource, but the openness reveals what an absolute ball-ache copying it would be, versus just buying the finished product!

Once I have made my millions from all the work I'm going to get, what with my new Line Array ( ), I will be looking at Danley for my next rig upgrade options!
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
toastyghost View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 09 January 2007
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 9846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 3:19pm
In the interest of fairness and comparison, here is a single SH96, with the same plots (or as close as I can possibly get - same colour scale, same layout, same audience size - since they don't have their GLL enabled for Focus mapping) and data as the hang of RCF HDL6A. With a fly grid, it's within a couple kg of the same weight. Six HDL6A 'should' give 60 degree vertical dispersion, so this is a pretty fair comparison in design.

Horizontal


Vertical


TF


Horizontal deviation


Vertical deviation


DI



16k


8k


6.3k


4k


1k


315Hz



So you can see, they're not perfect. No speaker is. There's a clear lobing at exactly 4k on this box, albeit literally for only 1/3rd oct (it's why I chose this frequency on both) and that's a function of a conical horn of this format, where it is stretched in one direction to achieve a desired pattern. In practice, it's not at all noticeable with real music, but it is there so I'm showing it clearly.

However, you can also see that there is way, way less lobing overall, hardly anything going where the box is not pointed, even down to the lower notes. So, far less reverberant sound, less spill into mics, fewer cables, fewer amps (even for a self powered system, which is available if you desire).

Also there is deviation in response, sure, but look how consistent it is as you move off-axis. So, as we have discussed already, tonal variance is way worse than SPL variance. So long as you're in the stated coverage pattern, the tonal balance is more or less maintained; no 16dB dips and a much flatter line overall in deviation, that doesn't really vary much even quite far off axis. Of course, you can see that 4k issue, in both directions, but since it's there for the majority of the audience, it's filtered out in the preset.

All Danley data is done raw by the way, this is without any EQ or filtering on the box. It's also a passive box, so one amp channel.

And in case you wanted to hear what they sound like, albeit on a phone recording, here's a pair in a real seated 'theatre' venue, without subs:


What did you pay for your HDL again Matt? A grand a box was it?
Back to Top
corell View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 19 August 2013
Location: Berlin
Status: Offline
Points: 1153
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2019 at 3:56pm
You are not supposed to post the same picture multiple times, kyle. Once is enough...
Tongue
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 13>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.