186 Horn - Throw them in the dumps?

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   Hi guys,
so right now we are building 186's horns for a new project. But i'm at a point where I'm not quite sure if we should continue to build more.

The Situation:
Setup will only be used outdoors on festivals/partys of probably 500-1000 people. The music played there comes solely from DJ`s playing a quite fast (~170-220bpm) electronic music similar to techno/trance etc.

The Plan:
Was (or is) to build 12x 186 Horns, stack them 6 each side and top that with 3-way mid-highs.
But I'm concerned that the 186s wont go down to where we need them. I've read that the 186s go down to ~50hz and stacking them would get this even lower.
For other projects (same music genre), we've used setups with subbass starting at 20hz, so i'm not sure 186s are the right call here.

Sooo.. What should we do now?  Adding a few X1 (or similar) to the mix? Throw the 186s in the dumps and replace them with something different?

Thanks for your help :)

Edited by insomn1a - 15 May 2017 at 12:06pm

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insomn1a Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 15 May 2017 Status: Offline Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote insomn1a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 186 Horn - Throw them in the dumps? Posted: 15 May 2017 at 9:55am
	Hi guys, so right now we are building 186's horns for a new project. But i'm at a point where I'm not quite sure if we should continue to build more. The Situation: Setup will only be used outdoors on festivals/partys of probably 500-1000 people. The music played there comes solely from DJ`s playing a quite fast (~170-220bpm) electronic music similar to techno/trance etc. The Plan: Was (or is) to build 12x 186 Horns, stack them 6 each side and top that with 3-way mid-highs. But I'm concerned that the 186s wont go down to where we need them. I've read that the 186s go down to ~50hz and stacking them would get this even lower. For other projects (same music genre), we've used setups with subbass starting at 20hz, so i'm not sure 186s are the right call here. Sooo.. What should we do now? Adding a few X1 (or similar) to the mix? Throw the 186s in the dumps and replace them with something different? Thanks for your help :) Edited by insomn1a - 15 May 2017 at 12:06pm

citizensc Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 16 October 2015 Location: Perth,Australia Status: Offline Points: 526	Post Options Post Reply Quote citizensc Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:13am
	Are you able to link the kind of music you are playing. I have no experience with the 1850/186 horn but i do know 40-45 hz is much lower than most people think. We use punishers in 2 blocks of 4 for techno and they are thunderous in a 500 person warehouse party. Punishers fall off pretty sharp at 40 hz. The f218 only plays flat down tp 45hz and most punters wouldnt call them lacking in low end. The reality is if you want 20hz (im not sure you do) you need a VERY big horn and a lot of them coupled. Bigger than sbh big.

insomn1a Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 15 May 2017 Status: Offline Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote insomn1a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:30am
	This is the kind of music that is played on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX6jT2q4V2E We used F218 cabs only before this for this kind of music and F1 recommended the crossover settings of 20 to 114hz for them. This is why 20hz was used. We are really new into this "speaker-built-thing", because until now we've only rented sound systems and run them at the recommended settings, so to be honest i've really got no clue what i need exactly Edited by insomn1a - 15 May 2017 at 10:31am

insomn1a Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 15 May 2017 Status: Offline Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote insomn1a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:21am
	by the way, what do you guys use to cut the angles? Right now we are using a buzzsaw to cut and some kind of electrical plane for more precision (is that how this tools are called in english? ) But i thought there might be a better and faster way to do this...

bitSmasher Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 23 June 2012 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 2288	Post Options Post Reply Quote bitSmasher Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 12:49pm
	The system may have been "crossed" at 20hz, but did you ever hear (feel) the F1 hit that?
	https://www.instagram.com/batteryacidsoundsystem/

Keen Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 30 May 2011 Location: Brisbane, Aus Status: Offline Points: 1177	Post Options Post Reply Quote Keen Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:04pm
	if you're building that many, scrap the 186 and build 12 sbh, that's what everyone else does these days.

Keen Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 30 May 2011 Location: Brisbane, Aus Status: Offline Points: 1177	Post Options Post Reply Quote Keen Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:18pm
	on seconds thoughts, 6 x 186 would meet your needs. as has been said, the output below 40hz won't be loaded by the horn. though choose a driver for gradual roll off and you'll still hear nice things below 40 with 12 horns.

Keen Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Young Croc Joined: 30 May 2011 Location: Brisbane, Aus Status: Offline Points: 1177	Post Options Post Reply Quote Keen Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:24pm
	http://forum.speakerplans.com/budget-soundsystem-with-turbosound_topic97852.html may be of interest

insomn1a Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 15 May 2017 Status: Offline Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote insomn1a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:34pm
	So what are the pros/cons for the SBH over the 186s here?

insomn1a Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 15 May 2017 Status: Offline Points: 10	Post Options Post Reply Quote insomn1a Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 1:40pm
	If it would be best to use the SBH for us i would scrap those 4x 186 Horns we've already built and replace them with SBH's :)

mobiele eenheid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Old Croc Joined: 15 August 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1568	Post Options Post Reply Quote mobiele eenheid Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:01pm
	Personally I like psytrance and dark psy at home, with subs that do 20 - 30 Hz but not enough to justify building a PA that does this also (the effect is present but at a minimum at best). At most psytrance parties I used 40 Hz and up or even 50 Hz and up. For 180 BPM and up, output at 20 - 35 Hz can result in a sluggish sound, whereas with a 50 Hz high pass, everything sounds fast. So yeah, I would keep the 186 horns. Johan

osse Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Registered User Joined: 26 August 2013 Location: Sverige Status: Offline Points: 84	Post Options Post Reply Quote osse Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:03pm
	The 186 horn probably dig a bit deeper than the short bandpass horn of the f218, so if you are happy with them you probably will like the 186! I play techno on a pair fairly regularly and I like how they sound. 20 hz hpf on the f218 sound way too low imo, they provide no spl to speak of down there