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21" woofers not sounding good

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noviygera View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 7:31pm
it’s for house parties. But they’re more hi-fi oriented listening sessions, to be specific. Quality and bass definition definitely trumps quantity here.
My intention was to have the equivalent output of 4 x 21” in sealed cabs, just an estimate….
Maybe 8 x 15s….

For many years, I used a pair of quality ported 18s. Their output was always more than enough. Then I borrowed a Bag End subwoofer system and my understanding of deep, defined, linear bass changed, fundamentally.

The plan is to never push them very hard, but play them at moderate levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 8:39pm
You might want to test Open Baffle setups with multiple woofers. 

Since you are more concerned with the fidelity and less with the level, and described that two ported 18" were enough or almost too much level wise. 

I am running two cheap 12" woofers in very compact u-frames, tucked inside a closet, powered by a bridged crown xls 2500 (corrective boost applied with dsp) . The room is admittedly small, around 12 sqm, concrete walls, large, full bookshelves up to ceiling height.

This setup gives me very pleasant, strong sub down to 30 Hz. It is relatively tactile, although it doesn't go insanely loud. The bass is also very articulate, dry and nlt boomy. If the bass instruments are well recorded, the pitch of the individual notes is easily perceived. Opposite of the  muddy one-note experience.

It's very easy and economical to experiment with. If it doesn't work out, you don't waste much wood, and can still build something else.

If the room permits, several 15", 18" or even 21" woofers should give you good results!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2024 at 10:35pm
Four years I had a pair of 18s on U frame open baffles! Ultimately, I realized that it is almost like listening to bass in headphones. it is very clean and good quality base, but there is a little pressurization of the room and so there is no physical impact. Even low, listening levels, no difference. 

so personally, I concluded that open baffle is good, but not in the bass area, for me.

Infinite baffle, a whole Nother story! That was the ultimate when I could use an attached room as a subwoofer. don’t have that option anymore…
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2024 at 11:00am
I would go the "simple" bassreflex route with a number of 10,12,15", the size and number of speakers according to what level you need it to go with the power available. The speaker T/S parameters are important here. 18" or 21" can work for tight low impactful (sub)bass, but very likely not good sounding above ~80-90 Hz or 60-65 Hz respectively.
Look for drivers with fairly low Fs (25-30 Hz range) combined with low(isch) Qts-Qes values (roughly between 0,25-0.33) and BL as high as possible (preferably above 20).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Keen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2024 at 11:53am
Originally posted by VECTORDJ VECTORDJ wrote:

I use B and C 21 in Ported Horn Cabs and They CRANK out the Bass!!!!!
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2024 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by noviygera noviygera wrote:

Four years I had a pair of 18s on U frame open baffles! Ultimately, I realized that it is almost like listening to bass in headphones. it is very clean and good quality base, but there is a little pressurization of the room and so there is no physical impact. Even low, listening levels, no difference. 

so personally, I concluded that open baffle is good, but not in the bass area, for me.

Infinite baffle, a whole Nother story! That was the ultimate when I could use an attached room as a subwoofer. don’t have that option anymore…

How did you process the signal for those OBs? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2024 at 5:52pm
I hope that you realize how all this works.
Having a driver in not so optimal box and fixing the sound with lots of eq on the low end will require dramatically more power pushed to the driver to achieve the low notes. This also creates a phase shift and increase of the group delay.
This means that instead of the box playing the low notes, the driver it self must do it.
This means lot more stress to the driver and way more cone excursion than normal which will increase distortions quite a bit. 
Marjan Milosevic
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noviygera View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noviygera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2024 at 7:17pm
Marjan,

Are you referring to the BagEnd subwoofer system or the open baffle subs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2024 at 4:14pm
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Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2024 at 12:50am
Having just put together the first sealed bix for a pair of PD.2150 “coffee tables” which are tuned to about 60-65Hz, I can well attest that they are significantly better at low end output than a 12”.

Nobody will be surprised by that revelation…

Small diaphragm drivers trying to do mega low output always run into the same issues: excursion related non-linearity and mechanical noise.

A large diaphragm driver like an 21” or 24” for the same displacement has to travel significantly less distance (and usually have a higher motor force for the volume of air they’re moving to boot).

The limiting factor for what you’re talking about with sealed cabinets is that the corrective EQ comes at the expense of headroom and power. The 2150 box I built at full output would draw about 50-60W and should achieve 115dB @ 1m… HOWEVER it would require an amplifier capable of about 3.2-3.8kW into 8R and steadily rises to that level from about 60Hz downwards to achieve that when you consider the gain of the corrective EQ.

I stuck a 20Hz HPF on mine because I have no interest in frequencies that do nothing but piss my neighbours off, piss me off with rattling furniture and fundamentally waste power from my amplifier’s rails. Run from a modest amplifier (600-1,200W @ 8R) it would be more than capable of providing sub for a large-ish house party. I’m running it on a channel of my Cloud CX-A6 and that is capable of more output than is compatible with my rental agreement 😂
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2024 at 1:43pm
Cloud CX series are great sounding amps. I used to use a CX-A4 bridged to 2x240w@8ohms for DJ monitors. Super reliable too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KidCreole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2024 at 5:10pm
For a driver to be suitable for a sealed enclosure, you would need an EBP of 50 and below for it to function correctly. 
The Beyma 21 has an EBP of 83,3, so perhaps try playing around with the volume of the sealed chamber to get something closer to what you want to achieve.


Edited by KidCreole - 04 February 2024 at 6:43pm
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