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3D scanning / 3D printing for old speaker part

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Requiem View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 July 2017 at 5:51pm
Does anyone know a good place with decent prices where I can get a small speaker part (a resin phase bung) 3d scanned and then 3d printed, as they have long gone out of production and we have a couple of broken ones that need replacing...
its a one of mykeys old mrk2 xtro phase bungs.

or alternatively, if anyone has any lying around, get in touch!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 6:12pm
If you have one, you could take a mould of it using plaster of paris and then make your own fibreglass ones.

3D printing of an object that size would be very expensive, far more than the original horn flares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Requiem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 6:28pm
I wasnt sure about 3D printing prices, i assumed they would of gone down over the past couple of years.
the item isn't the complete horn flare, its just the phase bung section slightly bigger than a closed fist, with a mounting ring around it.

I did know about the fibre glass moulding option, but thought that 3d printing with resin would be closer to the original, and wasn't entirely sure how to go about the mould taking/ fibreglassing as never done it before
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 7:06pm
3D printing shouldn't be prohibitively expensive, but you may need to shop around a bit to find a good deal. 10p per cc is achievable and I've seen services quote that  (although 20-25 is more common).

This would be under 50 quid to print for something the size of a fist. You can potentially reduce costs by being creative with materials - printing a hollow shell which you then fill with something cheap (poly resin and shredded glass fibre mix perhaps?) 

If you only used the 3D printer for an outer shell of a couple of mm, you might find costs reduced to 10-15 pounds for the print, and another 10 for your own finishing stages.

A solid ball of resin and glass strands is going to be extremely solid no matter how you approach it, so I can't see a whole lot that could really go wrong there.


Edited by Hemisphere - 24 July 2017 at 8:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 8:17pm
When Mykey first made them I believe they were solid resin but that made them very heavy and snapped the supports quite easily when the cab was dropped even lightly.  I understood that later versions had a foam core to reduce weight and had reinforcement in the arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 8:31pm

?

For the 3D print, I mean. It's a method I've been thinking about a lot recently but didn't have a chance to test it. If foam core works in fibreglass layups why not in 3D printing? Print the shell then fill it with foam after.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Requiem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 11:02pm
But as the shell is a closed unit how would i be able to fill it after? There would be no entry point, and i don't really fancy drilling a hole into it to fill it.
Would there be a difference in the sound if it was simply hollow?
Yeah the solid resin is too much for the support struts, hence why im looking for this repair. Ive had to do this a few times before but have always managed to discover spares lying around in the past.
Looking for a cost effective way to do it, I had someone say that it would cost between £500-1000 on facebook to 3d print this!! 
Obviously this would be solid resin, I would definitely need a cheaper option and the solid resin as stated, leads to a design flaw with the struts breaking after heavy use.


Edited by Requiem - 24 July 2017 at 11:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 1:28am
If the walls were like 3mm you could probably get away with it. The shape itself is structurally strong anyway and you could try bracing it internally as well. 

http://3dprintingpricecheck.com/

You can put a file here and get a quote. A 1 inch cube (16cc or so) was quoted as $3.63 from 3dprintuk.

EDIT: The quoted figure is with SLS which is actually the wrong sort of 3D printing for your application! You need FDM, which is literally charged per cc of material. SLS charges per cc of bounding box so you would end up paying for the entire solid even if you printed a hollow. Like I said you need to shop around a bit, but FDM is what you need.
Quote

Nylon

Process: Selective Laser Sintering (SLS)

Material (Technical Name): Polyamide PA2200

Equipment: EOS P100

Vendor Material Info: Material Info

$3.63
 £0.12/cm3 bounding box, min price: £2.40
6 - 10 business days
At that price it seems you could afford to print it with a fairly robust form. 
That Nylon material is not the strongest though. Not comparable to glass or ABS so you would want to overestimate the thickness needed. At that price you could afford to.


Edited by Hemisphere - 25 July 2017 at 1:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Requiem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 9:48am
Ok thanks for your help.
I was given this quote on facebook, just for the the radially symmetric bung part without the supports/ring.

Hollow, 10mm wall thickness:

Solid;


FAR out of my price range, for something that originally cost £100ish for the entire horn: flare, back bowl & phase bung!

I will have to get a more accurate description for the place you;ve linked me, but will get onto it


Edited by Requiem - 25 July 2017 at 9:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 2:14pm
You really don't need 10mm wall thickness for a phase bung.

First of all you can brace it, and if you're 3D printing there's no good reason not to brace the hell out of it, as it won't add much to your workload. Second is that the surface area just isn't that large to begin with, and the shape is an extremely solid one, geometrically.

Just as an example, you mount steel cup bar handles to your subs, right? I know they're not exactly critical structural elements of the enclosure, but if they were vibrating a lot under pressure they wouldn't be fit for purpose, would they? If you put a rubber handle cup in the box you know it would vibrate and have a negative effect, so they're obviously coming under stress, but a lot of them are nothing more than unbraced 1mm steel! And that's apparently good enough for the most expensive touring boxes.

Of course the structural integrity of the phase bung is going to be more critical for sound quality, but a 3mm shell braced with 2x10mm braces every 20mm (equivalent material used to 4mm thick unbraced, but much stronger) would still be overkill imo for what you need, and with 3D printing, the only way it's going to be affordable is if you use less material. You could even run full cross braces across the entire length and diameter of the bung, meeting in the middle like a star, and even cross brace that star with a ring in the middle. The less unsupported surface area (and the better supported/more cross-supported each surface is), the less resonance. 

That's why Mykey's foam core approach worked. The foam is basically an infinite bracing arrangement. The density of the foam will be less than 10% of the density of solid plastic, but it's still incredibly strong. The foam is formed of millions of incredibly thin walls that all link with one another, which gives it strength enough that when the outer skins push on it, there's no resonance. How many mm of glass and resin he applied to the outside of the core I have no idea, but he could have applied 1.5mm and it would have been enough, because of the infinitely braced strength of the internal structure.

The quotes you listed are for stereolithography (that's a joke - ancient technology with no relevance to anything besides extreme precision aerospace stuff, but obviously people who still have the machines want to try and sell you their products..), and selective laser scintering (SLS), which is more modern, but has the issue of charging per cc of bounding box, rather than cc of material used. 

Like stereolithography, SLS is very high accuracy and great for things like jewellery or precision engineering prototypes, but that just isn't necessary for your application. The great thing about FDM (fused deposition modelling) is that the rougher the finish you're prepared to accept, the cheaper the print will be, because it's literally just building up layers of material on top of each other with a nozzle. If you can find a printer with a 3mm nozzle, it'll be much cheaper and faster than one with a 0.7mm nozzle (like 10x faster, many times less electricity used, less damage to the equipment, etc).

You'll get a visually rough finish but I presume you intended to finish the bung manually anyway.

There are loads of other disadvantages to FDM - it struggles with complex shapes, and that can take the cost and complexity of model preparation way up, but a phase bung doesn't have that issue.

You might have better luck on 3D hubs, which can put you in contact with local 3D print shops, who are much more likely to specialise in FDM printing. SLS machines cost like 10 grand minimum, and you could probably get an FDM machine big enough to do your job for about 300 quid - less than what the SLS shop is asking for the entire job!


Edit: Actually a phase bung might have the issue I mentioned with regards to FDM printing. It depends if it starts with a flat face on the inside edge or not. If it starts from a curve and ends in a curve then you'll need to print support structures, but that's a function built into all FDM printers and doesn't require extra model preparation.


Edited by Hemisphere - 25 July 2017 at 3:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 5:29pm
could you not use the SLS but segment the bung for manual assembly and 'russian doll' the parts in order to use less cubic volume?
Buying myself a TFL-760H... piece by piece >.<
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by RoadRunnersDust RoadRunnersDust wrote:

could you not use the SLS but segment the bung for manual assembly and 'russian doll' the parts in order to use less cubic volume?
Why use SLS at all though? FDM is perfect for jobs like this. Straightforward shape, no fine details, finish not critical. 

Assembling the parts of a shell + bracing manually sounds like more trouble than it's worth. It also won't be cheaper, and it won't be higher quality except for having a smoother surface finish, but once you've assembled it from pieces any benefit of surface finish is lost anyway.


Edited by Hemisphere - 25 July 2017 at 5:42pm
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