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Advantages of a standard 2-way reflex vs coaxial

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citizensc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Advantages of a standard 2-way reflex vs coaxial
    Posted: 25 February 2021 at 12:33pm
Hi

Simple questions but the answer eludes me. What is the advantage of going with a standard 2 way reflex cab when you can use a coaxial driver. For example why would yo go with an 12NDL88 + DE880tn + ME90 (448 pounds at blue aran) when you could get a 12CXN88 (439 pounds)? 

Advantages I can see with the coaxial:
-More compact
-Lighter
-better vertical off axis response due to no difference in time arrival vertically off axis. 
-A true point source 
-slightly cheaper
-Easier to build

Advantages I see with the standard 2-way:
-Slightly better horizontal off axis response due to using full sized wave guide and no interference from the cone of the woofer 
-'Looks normal'
-potentially more arrayable if designed properly. 


Why are we not seeing coaxial speakers everywhere? Why are standard 2-way speakers still so popular? 

-Hugh



Edited by citizensc - 25 February 2021 at 12:34pm
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 12:54pm
The biggest problem with Coaxial Speakers are the dips within the Frequency Response. Not even the Whizzer Cone excludes such a phenomenon within the mid band frequencies.

Best Regards,
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 1:12pm
Real xmax is also lower 9/10 times, even if the specced xmax is relatively high. Its just in the design most of the times. Only real exception would be the bms tri-axial.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2021 at 2:36pm
Yes, in my experience, coaxials (rarely) have good bass response. Even the 15" versions.

Ok if you are just looking for a decent mid/top, but not for going below 60/70Hz.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote citizensc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

The biggest problem with Coaxial Speakers are the dips within the Frequency Response. Not even the Whizzer Cone excludes such a phenomenon within the mid band frequencies.

Best Regards,


Is this just because its difficult to fit a proper wave guide to the HF? or something to do with the geometry of the cone being inferior to the flat baffle a horn flare would typically be flush mounted to? 

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Yes, in my experience, coaxials (rarely) have good bass response. Even the 15" versions.

Ok if you are just looking for a decent mid/top, but not for going below 60/70Hz.


By this, do you mean that coaxials don't typically have T/S parameters that are suited to good LF response or that in practice they don't produce the LF respond you would expect based on the T/S paramaters? The 15FHX76 has an Fs of 40hz and a Qts of 0.43 for example, I cant imagine it would be difficult to get bass out of it. 
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by citizensc citizensc wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

The biggest problem with Coaxial Speakers are the dips within the Frequency Response. Not even the Whizzer Cone excludes such a phenomenon within the mid band frequencies.

Best Regards,


Is this just because its difficult to fit a proper wave guide to the HF? or something to do with the geometry of the cone being inferior to the flat baffle a horn flare would typically be flush mounted to? 



It is more to wards blockage (a smaller loudspeaker sitting directly over larger speaker's voice coil) or, interference (The Whizzer cone creating lobes at certain frequencies) pending on the coaxial design scheme. Such methods creates problems in the Midrange and High Frequencies.


Tannoy's concentric method is the best you can achieve without serious issues in the frequency response. However, the costs are out of reach for the majority.


This is why the sudden surge of full range loudspeakers brought back to the forefront are more popular than coaxial loudspeakers. Full range speakers always offered a more balanced sound than coaxial loudspeakers. Technology has allowed full range speakers to achieve greater SPL which, was the only edge choosing a Coaxial over a Full range.

Many at the time, sacrificed sound quality for higher sound pressure levels while, trying to achieve a single point of source sound. This is where Coaxial Loudspeakers fit the criteria. Coaxial Loudspeakers have been in existence beyond 80 years. So I am looking at Coaxial Loudspeakers tonal characteristics overall on how they perform within the midrange region.


Best Regards,








Edited by Elliot Thompson - 26 February 2021 at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Yes, in my experience, coaxials (rarely) have good bass response. Even the 15" versions.

Ok if you are just looking for a decent mid/top, but not for going below 60/70Hz.



You need to hear the BMS triax. You will ask where the sub is hidden.

Marjan Milosevic
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Yes, in my experience, coaxials (rarely) have good bass response. Even the 15" versions.

Ok if you are just looking for a decent mid/top, but not for going below 60/70Hz.



You need to hear the BMS triax. You will ask where the sub is hidden.



Yes - and nice price tag as well!

My experience is mainly with the "local" products, ie Beyma & DAS. Like I say, what I've heard, has been disappointing.

And Tannoys, etc. - yes, a different world.  Smile



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 3:15pm
Nexo brought out a whole new range of coax topcabinets. They probably use something like the 12CXN88 with a different horn. That 12CXN88 does look nice in the Voice Coil magazine test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APC321 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 7:50pm
When I have used coaxial drivers in venues (mid-tops with separate bass bins), the "point-sourceness" of the coaxial driver really shines if it can be flown at a steep angle (maybe 30 degrees) high (say 3.5m) above a dance floor.

The conical radiation pattern gives good coverage, and would be my box of choice for this application, compared to a standard 2 way box of the same quality.

However when I have used coaxial drivers in rectangular rooms of restricted ceiling height (say 2.5m) I have found that the practical effect of the conical radiation pattern is that good hf coverage is diificult to obtain.

In this application I would choose a standard 2 way box over a coaxial box of the same quality.   

Edited by APC321 - 26 February 2021 at 7:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Yes, in my experience, coaxials (rarely) have good bass response. Even the 15" versions.

Ok if you are just looking for a decent mid/top, but not for going below 60/70Hz.



You need to hear the BMS triax. You will ask where the sub is hidden.


So it digs deep enough, but does it do a nice midrange at the same time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I-shen Soundboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2021 at 10:20pm
BMS 6.5" coax monitors.  Real compression driver lovelyness.

They do sound bloody amazing, assuming you have bass duties covered elsewhere.  Stunning highs.

Speaker sexyness aside, this gives me a much smaller box than a horn + cone combo, which means it can be used in more places.  It's a 9 inch cube, which isn't large at all.  Currently rocking a home studio until I can use it on a DJ again...





Edited by I-shen Soundboy - 26 February 2021 at 10:56pm
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