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Blinding_son View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 December 2017 at 9:29am
I have recently started building up my first sound system and could do with a bit of advice.

I jumped straight in and bought 2 super scoops (Just cabs) for £150.
I then bought 2 x 18" drivers after looking at the recommended list.
The drivers are:
1 x Fane Colossus 18XB 1000w
1 x Fane Colossus 18SB 1000w

Luckily I found a powered mixer and 2 full range speakers next to a skip a couple of weeks before.
They work fine after changing the fuse in the mixer but aren't very powerful.
I have put the 2 x 12" drivers from the full range speakers into a single cabinet and built a cabinet for the horns.

I am wanting to use the sound system for house parties/small indoor and outdoor parties.
I usually mix Jungle, DnB and Hardcore but i'm not looking at building something that sounds perfect.

I have purchased a behringer super x pro for the crossover.
The problem I am now facing is that I didn't realise how much an amp would cost to power the super scoops at 1000w each.

In regards to the advice needed, do I:
1. Downsize the super scoops too 2 x 15" scoops at lower watts.
2. Save up for an amp to run the super scoops.
3. Sell everything and get a powered system.

I'm sure 2 x 15" scoops would be suitable for what I will be using them for and would match the power of the mids/highs a lot better before I upgrade them.

Thanks for the help.
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charlysays View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Blinding_son Blinding_son wrote:

I have recently started building up my first sound system and could do with a bit of advice.

I jumped straight in and bought 2 super scoops (Just cabs) for £150.
I then bought 2 x 18" drivers after looking at the recommended list.
The drivers are:
1 x Fane Colossus 18XB 1000w
1 x Fane Colossus 18SB 1000w

Luckily I found a powered mixer and 2 full range speakers next to a skip a couple of weeks before.
They work fine after changing the fuse in the mixer but aren't very powerful.
I have put the 2 x 12" drivers from the full range speakers into a single cabinet and built a cabinet for the horns.

I am wanting to use the sound system for house parties/small indoor and outdoor parties.
I usually mix Jungle, DnB and Hardcore but i'm not looking at building something that sounds perfect.

I have purchased a behringer super x pro for the crossover.
The problem I am now facing is that I didn't realise how much an amp would cost to power the super scoops at 1000w each.

In regards to the advice needed, do I:
1. Downsize the super scoops too 2 x 15" scoops at lower watts.
2. Save up for an amp to run the super scoops.
3. Sell everything and get a powered system.

I'm sure 2 x 15" scoops would be suitable for what I will be using them for and would match the power of the mids/highs a lot better before I upgrade them.

Thanks for the help.
 
Don't fit 15s... if the scoops were designed for 18s you'll upset the chamber volume by fitting a 15. Also many 15s handle the same amount of power as 18s. E.g the JBL2226 vs JBL2241. Both are 600w AES drivers but one is a 15" and the other is an 18".
 
Have you looked at the behringer EP series? The Behringer EP2500/4000 is 1800w @ 8r bridged and they're pretty reliable and solid. I've got an old one and its never missed a beat in years.
They can be had for as little as £100 maybe a bit more.
 
Sounds like a pleasing first rig though :)
 
I also very much like the styles you play. Really wish there were people around my area playing jungle, hardcore (im thinking early 90s) and good DnB. Just so much horrendous two step jump up with no musicality at all. I don't mind a few tracks like this to add diversity but honestly it's all they play!
 
Truth is, so long as people can feel their trousers flapping and their ears aren't being cut up by the tops then many will be very happy with the sound, particularly for the genres you are playing which sound quite crusty compared to modern tunes. I'm sure you will be really happy with just a few cheap old Berrys to power things :)
 
Also, try and get some contacts in the hire/ install industry and you may get some deals on amps which are being replaced in venues. I recently got two QSC 2450s for £200 fully working in just such a scenario- they came out of an install and the guy just wanted rid of them ASAP.
 
 


Edited by charlysays - 13 December 2017 at 10:05am
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concept-10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:15am
Get rid of the scoops, sell the 18s, get 2 cheap 15s  http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUE15600S ; build reflex boxes for them, if you can't design them people on here will help, put your mid tops on poles, buy a cheapish amp as stated above, if you want to go bigger just buy and build more, reflex is much nicer for house parties in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blinding_son Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:17am
Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

Don't fit 15s... if the scoops were designed for 18s you'll upset the chamber volume by fitting a 15. Also many 15s handle the same amount of power as 18s. E.g the JBL2226 vs JBL2241. Both are 600w AES drivers but one is a 15" and the other is an 18".

Thank you for the advice.

I didn't mean fit the super scoops with 15" drivers, I meant sell them and maybe buy some 15" hog scoops or normal scoops.

I have just looked at the Behringer EP2500 and these are the specs:
450W @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)*
650W @ 4Ω Stereo (per channel)*
500W @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)**
750W @ 4Ω Stereo (per channel)**
1200W @ 2Ω Stereo (per channel)**
1300W @ 8Ω Bridged-Mono***
1500W @ 8Ω Bridged-Mono****
2400W @ 4Ω Bridged-Mono****  

Do I not need an amp that puts out 1000w @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)?

And thanks, its mostly bassline here in Sheffield and garage but we do get quite a lot of jungle and dnb events here too and occasionally terror/hardcore events.


Edited by Blinding_son - 13 December 2017 at 10:19am
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Blinding_son View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blinding_son Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:35am
Hopefully next year I will be able to put on small free parties though and don't feel that these would cut it?
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charlysays View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Blinding_son Blinding_son wrote:

Originally posted by charlysays charlysays wrote:

Don't fit 15s... if the scoops were designed for 18s you'll upset the chamber volume by fitting a 15. Also many 15s handle the same amount of power as 18s. E.g the JBL2226 vs JBL2241. Both are 600w AES drivers but one is a 15" and the other is an 18".

Thank you for the advice.

I didn't mean fit the super scoops with 15" drivers, I meant sell them and maybe buy some 15" hog scoops or normal scoops.

I have just looked at the Behringer EP2500 and these are the specs:
450W @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)*
650W @ 4Ω Stereo (per channel)*
500W @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)**
750W @ 4Ω Stereo (per channel)**
1200W @ 2Ω Stereo (per channel)**
1300W @ 8Ω Bridged-Mono***
1500W @ 8Ω Bridged-Mono****
2400W @ 4Ω Bridged-Mono****  

Do I not need an amp that puts out 1000w @ 8Ω Stereo (per channel)?

And thanks, its mostly bassline here in Sheffield and garage but we do get quite a lot of jungle and dnb events here too and occasionally terror/hardcore events.
Sorry my bad, didn't read your post properly!
 
I'd use a berry bridged into each one... You'd have loads of headroom so you'd have to be careful not to push them too hard.
One thing worth remembering is that if you're running off 13a plugs a berry EP2500 is about the biggest amp you can run flat out off such a supply. A switchmode amp will probably do better off 13a plugs. So if you're going toroidal and running off 13a supply you're best sticking with several smaller amps. Also easier on your back. A 1kw @8r per channel toroidal amp is going to weigh 30kg easily.
 
Another good value decent amp to look out for are the matrix UKP series. The old ones can be had quite cheap, the newer switch mode ones are still very good value too.
 
Why do I live where I live haha... I don't think there has ever been a garage night in Pembrokeshire. I like garage too. Not so keen on bassline.
 
 


Edited by charlysays - 13 December 2017 at 10:53am
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charlysays View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

Get rid of the scoops, sell the 18s, get 2 cheap 15s  http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUE15600S ; build reflex boxes for them, if you can't design them people on here will help, put your mid tops on poles, buy a cheapish amp as stated above, if you want to go bigger just buy and build more, reflex is much nicer for house parties in my opinion.
 
I feel for jungle he might be disappointed in reflex 15s though unless they were a high excursion driver and tuned low... I do agree that the 18s fitted into a reflex box tuned to 35hz or so would be better for anything smaller and indoor though and far easier to move around.
 
I've got a few JBL 18" subs (M pro, sound power etc) and have used pairs of them for house parties. They were good for that and you could feel the bass but outdoors or in a bigger room they just were lost and I use cubo subs for those situations now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blinding_son Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 11:04am
So in your opinion I would be better off buying 2 cheap amps and bridge them for the super scoops?
Would these both run off my Berry super x pro in regards to the channels though?

Also if an amp is 500w per channel @ 4ohm, does it become 1000w bridged @ 8ohm?
Sorry for all the noob questions.
I feel like I just need an amp and then I'm all sorted.
Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Blinding_son Blinding_son wrote:

So in your opinion I would be better off buying 2 cheap amps and bridge them for the super scoops?
Would these both run off my Berry super x pro in regards to the channels though?

Also if an amp is 500w per channel @ 4ohm, does it become 1000w bridged @ 8ohm?
Sorry for all the noob questions.
I feel like I just need an amp and then I'm all sorted.
Thanks again.
 
Yes... I'd say two amps is better than one for running your subs unless you buy switchmode which generally won't be cheap. Switchmode amps are generally more efficient and will extract more usable power from a 13a supply than a toroidal amp. They are also far lighter. Berry EP2500/4000 is the best cheapest amp for your job I'd say, followed by oldschool matrix UKP. There may be others but this is my experience. The berry also have half decent clip limiters and filters etc built in.
 
Amp specs can vary... I.e an amp is usually not quite double the power at 4r versus 8r... all depends on the design of the amp and even how it was tested (short burst vs long burst vs continuous etc).
 
As a general rule a 500w pch @4r will be 1000w X 1 @8r though.
 
In my opinion amps on restricted mains 13a supply will better meet their spec when run at 8r too- every time the impedance doubles the current halves, thus easing the demand on the power supply.
 
You'll need to alter your speaker cables to run bridge too.
 
Get a couple of NL4FX in red and wire the positive to 1+ and the negative to 2+. Obviously put the red end of the cable into the bridge speakon on the EP2500/4000 and select bridge on the selector panel on the back.
 
Re your crossover I'm not familiar with it but seeing as you might be running an amp per scoop I would just use the link XLR on the first amp to supply signal to the second.
 
When you can, upgrade to a berry ultradrive as they have decent brick wall limiters!
 
 


Edited by charlysays - 13 December 2017 at 12:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blinding_son Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 11:34am
Luckily I haven't wired the drivers up in the scoops yet but I do agree that purchasing 2 amps would suit better.
At least then I could possibly afford an amp before Christmas so I can use one of the scoops for the new years party haha.

One last question;
What is the difference between rms and max on an amp?
Should I be looking at matching the RMS to the wattage of the driver or the max?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old king coles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 11:57am
I've got 2 fane colossus prime 18xs if you want to swap for your scoops and build yourself some heavy reflex boxes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charlysays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 December 2017 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Blinding_son Blinding_son wrote:

Luckily I haven't wired the drivers up in the scoops yet but I do agree that purchasing 2 amps would suit better.
At least then I could possibly afford an amp before Christmas so I can use one of the scoops for the new years party haha.

One last question;
What is the difference between rms and max on an amp?
Should I be looking at matching the RMS to the wattage of the driver or the max?
 
You could, at a push run both scoops in parallel of a bridged EP2500. It allegedly should do 2.5kw then 4r bridge. Obviously each channel will then be running at 2r, which is not good. If the amp was nice and clean inside, no bulging caps etc etc I would probably do that as a one off but not run it hard- stay atleast 3db under clip/peak. The manual claims you can do this, or atleast did. Lots have done it and they usually keep going but run quite hot.
Or just run both scoops at 8r stereo. Two run like this is probably going to be better than 1 running hard- more reflective surface from both cabs and also a few extra DB from them coupling together.
 
Four scoops couple very effectively in a block for noticeably more SPL than if they were spread around.
 
For subs I tend to give them slightly more in RMS than the speakers AES rating.
So for example two of my cubo subs have 18sound 18nlw9400. I let them have 1300w each and will run the amp just under clip.
 
Lots say you should have loads of headroom but so long as you use the amp within its specs (i.e do not clip it) you can run a 1000w driver with a 300w amp if you want. I've done it, nothing bad happened- so long as you don't clip the amp. Once you clip the amp the average power goes way up and stuff starts frying.
 
I've been running with 100- 300w headroom on my subs (basically no headroom but all running at 8r which gives the power supply headroom in a sense) for years and never had a problem. However I have a cloud CX335 comp limiter protecting the input to my ultradrive and a 4000ms limiter engaged protecting each amp from clipping. So it's basically impossible for me to clip my amps with this setup.
 
How much power you can give a speaker also depends on the design of the cab. Some cabs can place a lot of pressure on the cone (like some bandpass) or require a lot of excursion. So sometimes the speaker may be mechanically limited and shred itself before being thermally limited by power.
 
 
 
 


Edited by charlysays - 13 December 2017 at 12:31pm
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