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Alternative drivers for X12’s

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Kalle View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 May 2006 at 6:01am
Hi people!

I'm about to build new cabinets to replace my current ones and I've already decided to go for HD215's when it comes to bass bins (I'll probably build C-Subs if the HD215's don't go low enough for my purposes).

I have 2 RCF L12P110K's as mid-range drivers and I was suggested in this this thread that I'd buy 2 more of them and build something similar to an X12.

I'm wondering if anyone has tried using RCF L12P110K's in X12's, did it work ok? Or if anyone has a similar design (maybe a modification of X12) that could use my drivers?

The full specs for the L12P110K's are here: http://www.rcf.it/VediMacro.phtml?IDMacro=1633&m1=1& %20m2=1&m3=1_1_4



Thanks in advance ,

Kalle
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Richard Hart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Hart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2006 at 7:11am

To be honest, I wouldn't bother changing from the P.Audio. I've just simulated your RCF driver in WinISD, and the performance is nothing like the P.Audio simulation.

I've been trying out a few different drivers for the X12 recently, and I can't get a response as good as the SN12MB with any other drivers.

Download WinISD and try it yourself.

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zALTEC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zALTEC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2006 at 6:20pm
I built a pair of X12 with 18 Sound 12MB700 woofer, BMS 4550 driver and 18 Sound XT1086 horn but now i'm going to neo for weight question and because the 12MB700 is a horn driver (real low qts) and i don't like too much how it sounds reflex loaded, but i must admit is really loud and have a lot of dynamic and the driver crossed at 800hz really helps on phase anomalies.

For the woofer maybe i'll go with the original P.Audio SN-12MB or B&C 12HPL64, they plot quite similar on WinISD and BassBox and cost quite the same. They're available in 2 days but i never used P.Audio and i'm a bit skeptical of its quality because it's all chinese stuff.
I wanted to go with 18 Sound 12NMB420 but it won't be in production before the end of july so i have very few choices...

For the driver probably i'll go with the Beyma CP 385/Nd, i wanted B&C DE250, but they're unavailable from B&C till the end of july.. I think beyma could sound better (more hi-fi) than BMS but i must cross it at 1.4-1.5Khz and i don't know if i can get the woofers go this high without quality issues.

What do you think?

Regards,
Giorgio
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Soulshine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soulshine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2006 at 7:39pm
How does the BMS 4550 sound? Aren't you satisfied from it's performance? Why do you consider of changing it?
 
 
 
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zALTEC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zALTEC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 4:58am
This is a plot i made for my BMS:



Higher line is BMS 4550, lower line is a OEM B&C DE12, both on 18 Sound XT1086 horn, same condition test.

DE12 sounds smoother than 4550 in the lower range, more hi-fi, it's not much "open" because it lacks highs and you can hear that, the 4550 instead is more open (more highs) but i hear it ringing in my ear, i don't know why this happens but i don't feel confortable with 4550.
Anyway is a matter of kind of music you play, i use it mainly for live (mainly rock, jazz and blues bands) and i need something more hi-fi.
But for techno/disco music is a really good driver, can be crossed low and it's really really loud. I made a gig for a motocross event and ppl could hear really well the music and the speaker talking at about 50mt, and that's with only 2 X12 (12MB700+4550)! Under the X12 i had 4 HD15 + 2 2x15" proel sub and at 50 mt. they were quite deaf!!! So 4550 is definately a superb driver for disco, but i don't like it for live/jazz/blues, that's the reason why i need to change it even if i'm sure i'll lose about 5-6dB of SPL.

Regards,
Giorgio

Edited by zALTEC - 06 June 2006 at 5:00am
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Soulshine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soulshine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:45am
From which frequency and above does these saturation (i hear it ringing in my ear) disapears? If there is enough space left in your x12 you sould maybe consider of moving to a bigger diametre driver and horn. This would help alot in the crossing. How much are you thinking of selling the 4550?
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zALTEC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zALTEC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:50am
I think this ringing is part of the technology of BMS drivers, they're ring radiators which permits to handle a lot of power and go low in frequency but IMHO the drawback is that sound quality suffers. Maybe it's only my fault because friends told me the sound quality of my X12 is excellent, but i hear this ringing in all conditions, even at low spl (50-60dB), with/without horn, etc.
I don't think moving to a bigger driver would help because i'm crossing 4550 at 800hz, the same frequency other normal 2" are crossed at, so the problem is not on xover point.
I tested them against my Chario Reference home theater speakers and 4550 lose a lot for quality, clarity and definition of sound (plus the ringing problem).
I need a pro driver which sound like a home hi-fi and definately 4550 is not a good choice for me.

Anyway i won't be selling it for now, i have some fane colossus 15b-600 laying around and i'm thinking to build a pair of x15m, so 4550 could be useful..


But.. which neo driver is good for X12? Should i go to P.Audio SN-12MB or B&C 12HPL64 or better wait the end of july and buy the superb (at least on the sheet) 18 Sound 12NMB420?
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Soulshine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soulshine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 9:24am
From this two speakers: P.Audio SN-12MB or B&C 12HPL64. I would go for the P.Audio SN-12MB. It has a higher Qms, which means that it will have less mechanical lose. This is the reason why it will sound more open and cleaner. Qms is a good indicator of speakers behaviour. Aside this their plots in winISD looks similar enough and from a quick look in their frequency responce graff i count they have and the same crossing frequency.
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zALTEC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zALTEC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 12:22pm
I agree with you, the only thing that pull me off P.Audio is their real sound quality.. i don't like chinese cheap stuff too much.. B&C factory is about 100km from my home and i'm sure about their quality. I can tell the same thing of RCF, Ciare, 18 Sound and Sica, but not of P.Audio.

Anyone already used P.Audio speakers and can report about build quality and most important sound quality (with jazz, rock, classic music, not techno please!)?
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Mircea Bartic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mircea Bartic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 3:20pm

zaltec, P-audio has now the most advanced factory in the world (they opened a new factory a while back)




general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research
http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research

Ex Nexus_3
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zALTEC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zALTEC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:20pm
Hi Nexus, that's a good news to hear but i don't know if it means sound quality :)
For example, when i'm touring i normally use Martin Audio W8+W8S or W8L+WSX systems and i find that Martin Audio sounds good.
I have 4 Nexo PS15 which also sound good and they're loaded with B&C+PHL.
I have 2 Outline Doppia which also sound good and they're loaded with 18 Sound drivers.
As far as i know and i saw Martin Audio, like Nexo, Outline, and many pro quality company don't use chinese P.Audio drivers but mainly the italian B&C, RCF, Ciare, 18 Sound and the french PHL or the english Precision Devices...

What i know of P.Audio instead is they're used on budget LEM, old FBT (now use all B&C), Yamaha, HP, Behringer, etc. all absolutely sh*t sounding cabs.

Maybe there's a reason because Martin and Outline (for example) don't use P.Audio? I can be totally wrong, but can you tell me if there are some P.Audio speakers which sound good like Martin Audio/Nexo/Outline ones?

Remember that everything seems to sound good with techno/dance/etc, it's when you do "real" music like classic, jazz, blues, rock, etc. you hear a lot of difference between speakers and you can tell if they're good or not.

Regards,
Giorgio

Edited by zALTEC - 06 June 2006 at 8:28pm
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ceharden View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2006 at 5:17am
I use the SN15MB and they're good drivers for the money but would not stand up against a similar offering from one of the high-end manufacturers you list.

For an X12 I would suggest a B&C 12NDL76, I've got a pair which I'm about to try in an X12 style cab with a PD C14 compression driver and 18Sound XT1464 horn.  I'm expecting good results.
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